Was Dutfields Yard Really Empty?

[Mitch Rowe]

Mitch writes:

"Cutting the neck so deeply like the other victims was probably considered work to JTR. "

This thread is getting stranger by the minute, I have to say! Besides, I do not think that he necessarily cut to bleed the women. My guess is that he wanted to ensure silence by severing the windpipe.

The best,
Fisherman

Well..You know.. If I wanted to ensure silence I would just keep choking/suffocating them!

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Mitch,

Because he intended to mutilate them.

If I read you correctly, Jack decided whether or not to mutilate based on how deeply he'd cut someone's throat?

If whoever killed Stride didn't cut her neck deeply because he'd decided not to mutilate her, then it doesn't sound much like the man who took things to the Nth degree in Mitre Square shortly afterwards.

[Fisherman]

Mitch writes:

"Cutting the neck so deeply like the other victims was probably considered work to JTR. "

This thread is getting stranger by the minute, I have to say! Besides, I do not think that he necessarily cut to bleed the women. My guess is that he wanted to ensure silence by severing the windpipe.

The best,
Fisherman

[Mitch Rowe]

Why did he bother with the other four?

Because he intended to mutilate them. Ive never mutilated a body but I suspect the more blood drained from it the less blood I have to deal with.

[Sam Flynn]

Yes..Well... This is the way I look at it. People are sort of lazy. If JTR was really cutting the necks to drain the blood in an attempt to make the mutilations less bloody then why would he bother with Stride?

Why did he bother with the other four?

[Mitch Rowe]

...extensively....true, but not quite as extensively. Whilst it might not rule Jack out, CD, we have to consider the depth and extent of the throat wound, which was shallower in Stride's case than in the others, and appears not to have extended as far around the neck.

Yes..Well... This is the way I look at it. People are sort of lazy. If JTR was really cutting the necks to drain the blood in an attempt to make the mutilations less bloody then why would he bother with Stride? Cutting the neck so deeply like the other victims was probably considered work to JTR. If JTR aborts the Stride mission he either wants her dead for kicks or to keep her mouth shut. If JTR backs out of the deal at the gates then Liz might think something strange is happening. When that happens the next thing that will come to her mind will probably be the Whitechapel Murderer. If he goes on to kill again that night Liz is sure to tell.

[Fisherman]

Me oh my, Observer...!

That was the kind of question you either answer with + 10 000 signs, or not at all.
Iīll bow out, if you donīt mind.

The best,
Fisherman

[Observer]

Did the killer want to kill Elizabeth Stride? What if the individual whom Stride was seen with for the better part of an hour and a half was Jack the Ripper. He was observed kissing and hugging Stride, what if he developed a genuine liking for Liz Stride in the brief time he had known her? Trouble is he might have considered Stride a threat if he wanted his identity kept secret, who knows what dialogue transpired between them. So he cuts Liz Stride's throat but his heart was not in it, and he could not bring himself to mutilate her.


Gary Ridgeway let a few women off the hook because they showed a certain kindness to him.

all the best

Observer

[Sam Flynn]

Jack cut throats...

...extensively.

Liz had her throat cut...

...true, but not quite as extensively. Whilst it might not rule Jack out, CD, we have to consider the depth and extent of the throat wound, which was shallower in Stride's case than in the others, and appears not to have extended as far around the neck.

[Fisherman]

C.d. writes:
"I fail to see why the depth of the cut has become such a big issue"

No you donīt, c.d. You realize that since we have a few common traits to go by from the other alledged Ripper killings, any deviations from this is bound to raise eyebrows. And indeed, so it should!

It is another thing altogether to queue a number of possible explanations to the fact that the cut was shallow. In fact, if you feel like going all the way, you could say that Lizīcut was the only true Ripper cut, and that he probably slipped doing the others, travelling a lot deeper with the knife than what was his original intention.

Stride was the only victim killed south of Whitechapel High Street - could be a coincidence.
She had her throat cut, but in a more shallow manner, differing her from the others - could be a coincidence.
She ended up lying on her side, as the only Ripper victim - could be a coincidence.
She was seen being attacked right before she was killed, as the only Ripper victim - could be a coincidence.
She was seen kissing and gently speaking with a man in a very unhookerish way very near to her death, as the only Ripper victim - could be a coincidence.
She was the only Ripper victim that escaped having her belly ripped open - could be a coincidence.

Do you, c.d., see why some of us lend weight to these matters, or do you think that they have likewise become the objects of incomprehensible attention? She was cut in the neck and died, ergo she was a Ripper victim, sort of? No matter what?

Come on, c.d...!

All the best,
Fisherman

[c.d.]

I fail to see why the depth of the cut has become such a big issue. It accomplished its purpose did it not? There could be any number of reasons that the cut was not as deep as the others. Liz could have struggled more than the other victims so that Jack might not have been in the optimum position to make the cut. It might have been Liz's own knife or a different knife than the one he had used before and it did not fit his hand as well. He might have been more nervous this time and his hand was sweaty. These are just a few plausible explanations. It seems like we can't see the forest for the trees. Jack cut throats. Liz had her throat cut. If the BS man was her killer, why do we simply take for granted that he would have cut her throat as opposed to roughing her up a bit or stabbing her somewhere else? And why do we just glance over the fact that he did so after being seen by a witness or witnesses (if you include the Pipe Man)?

c.d.

[Suzi]

Hi all-
Back to the insensible woman bit- Of course Polly was almost mistaken for a tarpaulin and I am quite sure that the sight of people slumped/propped on streets or doorways,either drunk/insensible or asleep was a disarmingly common sight - as it is today in many city centres. We pass by don't we -most of the time.

OK- I know we're not living under the shadow of a 'Whitechapel Murderer'- but to be honest how often have we seen a figure slumped in a doorway/alleyway and shall we say "passed by (in some haste) on the other side"

Suzi x

[Fisherman]

Hi Kensei!

You write:
" Why less force would have been applied to Liz, I guess the only speculation would be that perhaps Jack heard the approaching horse cart in the exact instant of his cut and it made him hesitate while in motion, but that would indeed be wild speculation. I think it should also be considered that a person does not die instantly from a cut throat. Quickly, yes, but not instantly. It's not like being shot in the head. Diemshutz's impression was that he was looking at someone dead, not dying."

The notion that the killer would have been disturbed in that split second when he set about cutting is a very convenient one for those who want the Ripper on stage. If we count it in seconds and give the Ripper a theoretical five minutes in the Yard (could have been more, could have been less), then we are faced with 300 to one odds, and I think that should give anyone thinking "Ripper" here a pause.

Moreover, like I said, even if Jack DID hear the pony approaching, it would take him only one more second to go to the bottom of things, so to speak.

Incidentally, I have come to believe that the reason that he cut throats very deeply was NOT to bleed his victims but to ensure their silence. The rest was just a bonus, if I am correct. But that is for another thread!

As for Diemschutz, there was no way that he could tell that he was looking at a dead woman, not in that darkness. She was immobile, and did not react to his prodding her with the end of his whip, and that led him to think that she was EITHER dead or drunk. The second alternative would be by far the most common and logical answer, I think.

The best, Kensei!

Fisherman

[Suzi]

We're agreed Fisherman!!

I quite like the image of Mrs D being in the habit of tottering off for a crafty ciggie (or whatever!) when the 'political' singing got a tad tedious though!! " Just off to wash the cups up dearies".....Kerrrraaaash!! Tinkle!!!!! she fell to the floor!

Suzi x

[Fisherman]

Hi Suzi!

What you are saying here is basically that Stride would not have been a Ripper victim. And if that is what you mean, weīre agreed! Then again, if you have left out a "not" here, itīs another thing altogether...!

As for Diemschutzīsuspicion that it could have been his mrs lying there, I think that he shared the concern of many Eastenders that there was a maniac roaming the streets, and as mrs Diemschutz was stationed, I believe, directly behind the door leading out into Dutfieldīs Yard from the club, I think it was an understandable concern on his behalf.

All the best, Suzi!

Fisherman