Was Dutfields Yard Really Empty?

[Fisherman]

Mitch writes:
"What do we have in MJKs case? The blood didnt just happen to drain in the corner of the bed and room. JTR made that happen. It seems like JTR drained her blood. There was a reason beyond killing her that he did that."

Mitch, whenever somebody has her throat cut, severing all major blood vessels in the neck, you will end up with a picture where you can make the assumption that it "seems like" the victimīs blood has been drained.
But that does not go to show that the sole purpose of cutting that neck was to drain the blood, does it? If such was the case, you may argue that the guys handling the guillotine during the French Revolution did what they did simply because they wanted to drain the condemned ones of blood.

It is like stating that the Rippers objective when opening up the abdominal cavities of his victims was to subject the intestines to oxygen – it follows, but it does not have to be the purpose.

The best, Mitch!
Fisherman

[Mitch Rowe]

Where I differ from some of y'all is that I never use the differences in the crimes to evaluate whether they are possibly connected. People are creatures of habit but they can also adapt. Its the habitual things Im looking for. But thats not to say the adaptation is not important. It can also tell us something about the way JTR reacts to certain situations and may have a signature of its own.

Oh..And is there any importance to the depth and size of Strides wound as opposed to the others? Not as far as excluding her in my opinion. But once one accepts Stride as a JTR victim it becomes very important! Because now we know what JTR didnt do. And that can lead us somewhere.

Hello all,

It is abundantly clear, by using the members statements, that at approx 12:40am, the yard was empty. If we use Schwartz's statement, Liz is around the entrance at approx 12:45am. Leaving 5 minutes when the "Ripper" killer might have gained access to the yard, if he is to be there when she enters...(if hes not a member of the club or someone we have reason to suspect was there...like BSM, PM, and of course Liz herself...or if he is one of those members, or Broadshoulderedman or Pipeman, and not Jack the Ripper).

Anyone trying to enter the yard after 12:40 ish would need to slip past Liz nearby the gates, and do so almost as soon as Lave, then Eagle, were in the yard to be there for a surprise, and of course you would also need to explain why BSM then just walks away from the scene in time for a new ruffian to take charge, when he obviously had interest in Liz when he grabbed her, and it seems he helped her to her feet as well, ..perhaps to continue his insistence she accompany him to the nearest alley,...a request that apparently was declined.

So...You have a thug,..perhaps drunk and ruffled... a victim, at or about the murder site, near the time she was cut, and an empty yard. What more is needed for a victim who only had a single, death dealing cut? And yet people insist that makes less sense than Jack the Ripper killing her by using some mysterious entrance and exit.

Liz was likely killed by someone affiliated with the club in some manner, and that could well be BSM. Jack the Abdomen Ripper had other plans that night.

Best regards all.

[Mitch Rowe]

Yes, if it was 2.5" deep instead of 3.5" deep, it was still a proper cut.

In each murder, you can find several things that are different from all the other slayings.

Yes. And many of those we can find no reasons. With Stride we can find a reason. Probably aborted his mission when Diemschutz arrived. If so then I think JTR had been in the yard before. If he aborts before Diemschutz then he didnt like the accomidations.

[sdreid]

Yes, if it was 2.5" deep instead of 3.5" deep, it was still a proper cut.

In each murder, you can find several things that are different from all the other slayings.

[Mitch Rowe]

...perhaps to relish the deep slice right around the neck, CD. It strikes me that whoever cut the throats of Nichols, Chapman, etc., did so resolutely and powerfully, cutting deep down into the muscles on the left side of the neck and sliding that baby across the throat to the other side. I suggest that this was part of Jack's "thang", and if so it was a degree removed from the comparatively straightforward throat-wound inflicted on Liz Stride.

Whether it was his "thang" or not is beside the point. If he gets away from the Stride problem he can always do his "thang" somewhere else. Besides who says his "thang" cant serve a purpose?

I personally think JTR was just draining the blood and no other purpose. That doesnt mean I dont include it as a signature. It dont have to be a ritual to be a signature with me. I believe a signature is what you do when you do it. The reasons dont matter for that instance. But beyond that.. The reasons can become its own signature.

Lets see now? If JTR is draining the blood in order to mutilate. The where does that leave poor Alice McKenzie? Not very likely Im afraid.

[c.d.]

...perhaps to relish the deep slice right around the neck, CD. It strikes me that whoever cut the throats of Nichols, Chapman, etc., did so resolutely and powerfully, cutting deep down into the muscles on the left side of the neck and sliding that baby across the throat to the other side. I suggest that this was part of Jack's "thang", and if so it was a degree removed from the comparatively straightforward throat-wound inflicted on Liz Stride.

Hi Sam,

That certainly may be true and if Jack had had his druthers he might have preferred that he had cut Liz in that manner. But it also might have been a case of any port in a storm. Killing being the primary objective. I guess I am simply objecting to the point of view that the neck wound was not as deep, therefore.... I think it is just one of many points to consider and not a point that should be given a lot of weight. Again, my opinion only.

c.d.

[Sam Flynn]

Well I'm sorry and maybe it's just me but I am still not getting the whole deepness of the cut issue. Assuming for the sake of argument that Liz was Jack's work,what was his intention?

...perhaps to relish the deep slice right around the neck, CD. It strikes me that whoever cut the throats of Nichols, Chapman, etc., did so resolutely and powerfully, cutting deep down into the muscles on the left side of the neck and sliding that baby across the throat to the other side. I suggest that this was part of Jack's "thang", and if so it was a degree removed from the comparatively straightforward throat-wound inflicted on Liz Stride.

[c.d.]

Well I'm sorry and maybe it's just me but I am still not getting the whole deepness of the cut issue. Assuming for the sake of argument that Liz was Jack's work,what was his intention? Was it to dispatch her as quickly as possible or to make a cut that was the same depth as all his others. And even if we assume that Jack killed the canonical five, why does one cut that was not as deep as the others cause so much attention? A major league baseball pitcher might throw a 90 mile an hour fastball and then follow it with one that was only 87 miles an hour. Still the same damn pitcher. The focus is also entirely on Jack. But what about Liz? Did she struggle and make it harder for him to cut? Was her clothing exactly like the other victims so that the knife cut would have to be exactly the same? Did Jack have the same angle? Could he see as well in the Yard as he did in the other locations? There are just way too many variables here to place such importance on the depth of the cut. My opinion only.

c.d.

[Mitch Rowe]

I'm not denying he said that. Whether Jack partially suffocated his victims in every case is a matter of dispute, however - we should be cautious of using it as a distinguishing factor by dint of that controversy. What's undisputed is that the aforementioned victims' throats were more extensively severed than Stride's.

Yes..And if Stride had been mutilated or an attempt had been made then I would say JTR didnt care about draining the blood. What do we have in MJKs case? The blood didnt just happen to drain in the corner of the bed and room. JTR made that happen. It seems like JTR drained her blood. There was a reason beyond killing her that he did that.

[Sam Flynn]

Phillips said [Chapman] was partially suffocated. I believe he was right.

I'm not denying he said that. Whether Jack partially suffocated his victims in every case is a matter of dispute, however - we should be cautious of using it as a distinguishing factor by dint of that controversy. What's undisputed is that the aforementioned victims' throats were more extensively severed than Stride's.

[Mitch Rowe]

That not only takes time, but also allows the victim more of an opportunity to struggle free.

They are passed out! Annie Chapman died of syncope. Phillips said she was partially suffocated. I believe he was right.

[Mitch Rowe]

Hi Mitch,If I read you correctly, Jack decided whether or not to mutilate based on how deeply he'd cut someone's throat?

If whoever killed Stride didn't cut her neck deeply because he'd decided not to mutilate her, then it doesn't sound much like the man who took things to the Nth degree in Mitre Square shortly afterwards.

No..Jack decided how deep to cut the throat based on whether he decided to mutilate!

It does sound like the same guy. Because he was able to not get caught with Stride. When he aborted his mission Stride was a problem. He wanted to get far away from the problem. JTR is doing alot more than just killing the other victims when he nearly cuts their heads off.

[Observer]

Hi Fish

Me oh my, Observer...!

That was the kind of question you either answer with + 10 000 signs, or not at all.
Iīll bow out, if you donīt mind.

The best,
Fisherman

HeHe .....thought that would bring such a reaction.


Point is Sam what if he was the man who was observed with Stride on and off for an hour and a half, and he took a shine to Long Liz? but he knew he'd have to silence her. Hence the shallower cut to the neck and the lack of mutilation

all the best

Observer

[Sam Flynn]

Well..You know.. If I wanted to ensure silence I would just keep choking/suffocating them!

That not only takes time, but also allows the victim more of an opportunity to struggle free.