Was Dutfields Yard Really Empty?

[Fisherman]

Hi c.d!

I cannot name B S man, I´m afraid. And like you, I am sure that the police would have questioned people about that name too, although the efforts in the case were soon to be directed against Jack.
I see no need at all to believe that the police must have identified him. The criminal histoy is crammed with unidentified people, who we KNOW were at murder spots, but who succeeded to leave them unnamed.

If I am to venture a guess about BS man, I think that I would go for somebody else than Kidney. Just a hunch, to some extent grounded on the drawing of Kidney at the inquest, a drawing that does not seem to imply a full-faced, broad-shouldered guy. But that could be wrong too, since it is just a drawing, an a drawing from the side at that!

The best,
Fisherman

[c.d.]

Hi Fisherman,

I have no disagreement at all with your argument or the scenario you put forth. My only question to you would be who do you think the BS man was? I notice you did not mention Kidney by name. Do you think he is the man she left him for? Yes, it could be. But wouldn't it seem likely that the police could have put a name to the BS man by questioning Kidney himself or Liz's neighbors and friends? Or at the very least gotten some sort of lead as to his identity?

c.d.

[Fisherman]

C.d. writes:
"Sorry brother, but you lost me completely here. Are we to assume that Liz took being thrown roughly to the ground as a sign of affection? Now she might not have expected a knife to the throat but is it not reasonable that she expected more rough treatment and therefore was on her guard?"

I think, c. d, that as the two went into the yard, Liz was pretty sure that he would not harm her physically in any way. And I will explain to you why, hoping that you will listen. Not everybody do.

It all lies in the mechanisms of an abusive partnership. The easy thing to believe here is to think that the man beats up on the woman because he enjoys to do so, and that she remains in a passive role. This, c.d, is normally NOT the case.
Relationships like these more often than not involve TWO abusive parts, man AND woman. The difference between the two is that he applies physical violence, whereas she abuses him verbally.
The man in a relationship like this does not enjoy beating up on his woman. He is often genuinely fond of her, and he is also generally a weak person, who very much fears to loose his partner. She is often the more intelligent of the two, and the one who argument-wise can defeat her spouse. This often contributes to the beatings-up; he despises the fact that he looses arguments, and resorts to the only thing where he knows that he will prevail: physical violence.
One important factor to realize here is that very often, when men like these have beaten their women; slapped them in the face, punched them, kicked them or so on, they immediately are repentful, and their fear of loosing their women surfaces. They turn very quickly from having beaten, to apologizing and begging their women to stay with them.
Now, take a look at B S mans actions: Does he walk up to Liz and punch her in the face? No, he does not - he tries to persuade her to come with him, and when that does not work he tries to drag her by her hand into the street with him. It is only when this tactic miserably fails, that he erupts into sudden violence; he throws her to the ground.
Does Schwarz say that he beats up on her afterwards, throws himself over her, punches her? Nope - after the sudden eruption of violence, he is probably as meek as a lamb. And THAT is when she gets to abuse HIM. She takes him into the yard with him, and at that time she knows that his violence has erupted and left him, in short: she is top dog in that yard, and she is not afraid for a second. She knows that he becomes a pathetic bag of excuseswhen he has abused her physically, and she welcomes the opportunity to get back at him.
Trouble is, she goes too far this time. My guess is that she tells him that she has had it with him, that they are through, and that makes him go off once more, something that takes her totally by surprise.
And there you are, c.d., it all is very simple if I am correct on it. A case of the good old "If I can´t have her nobody else will-disease", a domestic quarrel with the drab old domestic ingredients of a man who abuses physically and a woman who retalliates verbally.
Now, then, c.d - do you finally see what I am suggesting, and the sense of it?There is no need for you to agree, but please don´t tell me that it is a strange or incredible scenario - it is a lot more common thanthroat-cutting, eviscerating serial killers,believe you me!

The best,
Fisherman

[Ben]

Hi CD,

I would expect to see more marks and more bruises on her arms and hands. I would also expect that her clothes would have been ripped or at least more disheveled.

Nah, I wouldn't.

I think the slit throat, bruised shoulders and assorted dirt and blood are evidence enough that a struggle of some description may have occured before death. I wouldn't necessarily expect excessive bruising to the hands and arms since attackers rarely have occasion to target that area (and Schwartz never mentioned any injuries sustained in that region). Clothes? Well, they were likely to be pretty worse for wear anway, and it's not as if crumpled fabric remains "crumpled" for very long (unless her dress was made of tracing paper ).

I disagree completely about the cachous. If you are being grabbed and choked, it seems to me that the natural reaction is to push your attacker away

She probably did; push with one hand, thwack with the other. As for the "choking", that may well have occured once Stride was on the ground and powerless to fend off her attacker. Whatever, the presence of cachous is far more indicative of pre-tensed muscles (and thus an anticipated attack) than a completely surprise attack.

Regards,
Ben

[c.d.]

Hi CD,



But what "signs" would you be looking for? Surely when confronted with the spectacle of a dead woman with a slit throat and bruised shoulders, it needn't take a giant leap of faith to surmise that a "struggle" of some sort may have occured beforehand. It wasn't as if there was anything there that pointed away from there having been a struggle, and no, the cachous doesn't qualify on that score. If she was caught completely off guard, it would have greatly increased the likelihood of her dropping them in blind instinct, as opposed to clenching her fists preparatory to fending off an attacker.

Best regards,
Ben

Hi Ben,

Not meaning to sound smart ass here but you can ask Fisherman the same question as he made the same statement if I am not mistaken. As for myself, if a struggle took place, I would expect to see more marks and more bruises on her arms and hands. I would also expect that her clothes would have been ripped or at least more disheveled.

I disagree completely about the cachous. If you are being grabbed and choked, it seems to me that the natural reaction is to push your attacker away. This is much more easily accomplished with the flat of the hand than with a closed fist. Also, if she was being choked with her scarf, it would seem that the natural reaction would be to try to insert your hand between the scarf and the neck. This requires having your hand in a claw like shape as opposed to a fist. That would make it very difficult to hold on the cachous not to mention preventing the bag from tearing.

c.d.

[c.d.]

C.d. asks:
"Are we to believe that Liz did not realize that she was in any danger after being thrown to the ground by the BS man?"

Yes, c.d, we are! In case you have not noticed, I have always supported the theory that B S man was an AQUAINTANCE of Stride´s, a man who may have been equipped with a moody character, but someone that Liz knew very well how "to play" - at least until Dutfield´s Yard.

The best,
Fisherman

Hi Fisherman,

Sorry brother, but you lost me completely here. Are we to assume that Liz took being thrown roughly to the ground as a sign of affection? Now she might not have expected a knife to the throat but is it not reasonable that she expected more rough treatment and therefore was on her guard?

c.d.

[Ben]

Hi CD,

Liz was a veteran of the streets and for all she knew she might have believed that she had fallen into the hands of the Ripper. Yet there are no signs of a struggle

But what "signs" would you be looking for? Surely when confronted with the spectacle of a dead woman with a slit throat and bruised shoulders, it needn't take a giant leap of faith to surmise that a "struggle" of some sort may have occured beforehand. It wasn't as if there was anything there that pointed away from there having been a struggle, and no, the cachous doesn't qualify on that score. If she was caught completely off guard, it would have greatly increased the likelihood of her dropping them in blind instinct, as opposed to clenching her fists preparatory to fending off an attacker.

Best regards,
Ben

[Sam Flynn]

It explains why there was a Double Event that night.

Sorry, Simon, but that's rather a circular argument - it only works if you believe from the outset that Stride was killed by the Ripper.

Its a fact that Catharine Eddowes' murder was carried out within the boundaries of the City of London not in the East End.

It may as well not have been - Eddowes was killed within a handful of minutes' walking distance from the East End boundary.

[Simon Owen]

Hi Simon,Apart from supporting the opinion that Stride was a Ripper victim, which facts about the events of that night does her death truly explain?

It explains why there was a Double Event that night.

Its a fact that Catharine Eddowes' murder was carried out within the boundaries of the City of London not in the East End. Why did Jack strike there ? Why not in the East End ?

[Fisherman]

Simon Wood writes:
"Elizabeth Stride being a Ripper victim explains so much about the events of that night that I can't conceive that she could be otherwise. I wonder if people see the Ripper as an infallible , almost supernaturally competent killer because he wasn't caught and so they discount the Stride murder because it doesn't fit in with that image. "

Simon, I have written a dissertation on the subject here on Casebook, for the very reason that I feel so certain that the Ripper never was in Dutfields Yard that I find it hard to cenceive that it could have been otherwise. In it, I write that as long as you need Jack on the stage, you are left with unsurmountable problems, but once you leave him out, that dissolves like a troll in sunlight.
Welcome to the world of mixed opinions, Simon!
Incidentally, if you feel like reading my dissertation, it is called "Piecing it togehter - a possible scenario of the death of Elizabeth Stride".
Moreover, I would like to point out to you that I set out as a firm believer in Liz being a Ripper victim too - how, oh how could it be otherwise? - but after having studied the case for more than twenty years, I have reached a different opinion. Does not make me right, of course - but goes to show that I have paid my learning fee a couple of times over...
Finally, I do not believe in any supernatural Ripper. I think he was a man who was often frightened, who suffered times when he felt inferior, and who recognized societys´ right to point him out as a monster - for whatever THAT is worth, Simon!

The best,
Fisherman

[Sam Flynn]

Theres just too many to list!!

Don't be such a tease! If there are so many facts about that night which can be explained only if Stride was killed by the Ripper (apart from the somewhat circular assertion that she was a Ripper victim) surely you can share a few of them with us, Mitch?

[Fisherman]

C.d. asks:
"Are we to believe that Liz did not realize that she was in any danger after being thrown to the ground by the BS man?"

Yes, c.d, we are! In case you have not noticed, I have always supported the theory that B S man was an AQUAINTANCE of Stride´s, a man who may have been equipped with a moody character, but someone that Liz knew very well how "to play" - at least until Dutfield´s Yard.

The best,
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

Hi Jon!

You write:
" if I may have a stab at your strange list"

...which makes me wonder if you left out the quotation marks on purpose??

My list is not strange. It is a list that points out the many deviations between Liz´demise and those of the other victims. The only strange thing with that is that so many poster prefer to look away from them.

The best,

Fisherman

[Mitch Rowe]

Hi Simon,Apart from supporting the opinion that Stride was a Ripper victim, which facts about the events of that night does her death truly explain?

Theres just too many to list!!

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Simon,

Elizabeth Stride being a Ripper victim explains so much about the events of that night

Apart from supporting the opinion that Stride was a Ripper victim, which facts about the events of that night does her death truly explain?