Was Dutfields Yard Really Empty?

[c.d.]

The Liz was not a victim of JTR camp makes a strong point when they point out that several witnesses testified that they had been in the yard shortly before Liz was killed and that the yard was empty. I am just not that familiar with the layout of the yard. Is it possible that someone could have been in the yard and not been seen? What were the lighting conditions like? Was the gate the only possible way to enter the yard? Could you see into the yard from the street?

Thanks for your help.

c.d.

[George Hutchinson]

Hi, CD.

The yard was a cul-de-sac by 1888 though it had not always been so. There was certainly a bend to the right at the end that someone could have hidden in. The yard was dark enough for Louis Diemschutz not to be able to see what had made his pony pull up sharp and it's often said that the only source of light that night was from the fanlight over the door into the IWMC. This was beyond the spot where Liz's body was found and, rather like the lights in Mitre Square, would not have lit the relevant spot.

You would have been able to see into the yard from the street if you don't consider the darkness as the gates were not closed as far as I know. The gates were the only way in and out by normal means and I have long thought it is perfectly possible that JTR could have been hiding in the shadows at the end of the yard. Possible does not make likely, however.

PHILIP

[c.d.]

Hi Philip,

Thanks for your response. That is very helpful information.

I have to wonder though, what would Jack have been doing hiding in the yard? Who would he have been waiting for?

c.d.

[sdreid]

Maybe Jack ducked in the yard to take a leak and then saw Stride having her little altercation. When she went in there to straighten up, he pounced. Just a possibility I'd say. Who knows!?

[Mitch Rowe]

Jack doesnt seem like the type to hide in the shadows waiting for a victim.
If this yard were one of Strides usual areas where she felt safe doing business then Schwartz story seems more creditable. We dont how quickly Stride could have picked up another customer who turned out to be JTR.

[c.d.]

Jack doesnt seem like the type to hide in the shadows waiting for a victim.
If this yard were one of Strides usual areas where she felt safe doing business then Schwartz story seems more creditable. We dont how quickly Stride could have picked up another customer who turned out to be JTR.

Hi Mitch,

I don't see Jack in the shadows waiting for a victim either. I don't have a problem with him being Liz's date or appearing on the scene shortly after the BS man left.

c.d.

[George Hutchinson]

I'd always assumed it to be the case that Jack hid in the shadows (if it happened at all) because his exit was blocked. The hiding was post-murder, not in anticipation of it.

PHILIP

[Mitch Rowe]

I'd always assumed it to be the case that Jack hid in the shadows (if it happened at all) because his exit was blocked. The hiding was post-murder, not in anticipation of it.

PHILIP

Oh..Sorry.
Yes. Im thinking it may have happened like this. Diemschutz turns into the yard. The horse stops because Liz and Jack are in the path. Jack then decides to kill Stride. Maybe because she picked him up somewhere where Liz goes to get regular customers? Maybe JTR just knows he needs to mutilate that night and Liz could recognize him if he kills someone else and Police link the two incidents together. Or JTR could have been ready at any time to abort one mission and start another leaving no witnesses. I mean JTR could have walked with Liz as far as they went and decided the yard wasnt safe enough for him. Before Diemschutz even appears JTR is gone.

[Jon Guy]

Could you see into the yard from the street?

Hi C.D.

Taken from Ripperologist, the Scotsman says :

The spot where the murder was
committed, therefore, is overlooked on three sides; and, inasmuch
as the gates were open on Saturday night, any casual
pedestrian might easily have seen the commission of the crime.

[kensei]

Before discovering Casebook I always had the impression from books, films, etc. that the common belief was that Jack had just cut Liz's throat and was about to begin further mutilations when at that instant he heard Diemshutz approaching, and retreated farther into the yard either to look for a back way out or just to hide in the darkness and wait until his exit out the gate was clear. Since he couldn't have known whether or not that would in fact happen, his adrenalin must have been racing, but then the events of the rest of that night have always seemed to me to label Jack as a bit of a limits-pushing adrenalin junky. It may also speak to his cowardly side that he did not simply attack Diemshutz, slash at him or just push him aside, to make his escape. He would only attack women, and mostly drunken ones at that.

One other point- in the photos of Berner Street that point out where the gate of Dutfield's Yard was, maybe it's just the camera angle but the space between the Club and the next building looks really tight to me. Just how wide was that gate?

[kensei]

Just thought of a follow-up: Another question would be- as far as lighting conditions, if Jack was indeed hiding inside the yard, how good a view would he have had of Diemshutz? If the scenario is correct I just wonder if Jack knew what sort of person had interrupted him.

[Suzi]

Hi all-

IMHO- if...IF our man was lurking in the shadows AFTER dispatching Liz (If indeed it was him at all).. OK-Lets say- if the killer of Liz Stride heard Louis and his pony etc turn into the yard and disappeared into the considerable shadows to wait for 'the discovery' -then all he had to do was emerge from the darkness and join the locals,who'd arrived to see what the kerfuffle was,then as the crowd increased just allow himself to be jostled to the back of the ever increasing crowd and off and away into the darkness of the court system or wherever- That just seems so viable to me.

Suzi

[Fisherman]

Hi Kensei!

The width of the passageway into the yard was around 280 centimetres. Add to this that the doors would have been hung on posts, and you have an even narrower opening.

All the best!
Fisherman

[Suzi]

Hi Fisherman-
Just checked-

That's about 9.1 ft for me and the other innumerates on the boards!
Very narrow,especially with the gates attached- but probably a typical size for a small yard with stables etc off

Suzi

[Mike Covell]

We still have a few small yards with entries on the High Street in Hull. They are very narrow, but so were the streets so they don't look out of place.
I will try and get some pictures this week.