What makes her such a likely candidate?

[slysnide]

That's right, separate jurisdiction. Forgot about that. Still a short distance to not notify the other district, considering how on edge everyone was during the previous 4wks. And it still seems bizarre that if JTR killed both he'd hang around 35 minutes after the discovery of Stride before killing Eddowes, only to return to graffiti at Goulston Street a block or so east towards the Stride killing and then confess to writing it by leaving Eddowes' bloody apron there. Way too illogical for a streetwise guy. Afterall the chances that he just got lucky in killing & dissecting the previous 2 w/out interruption by a constable walking his beat are pretty slim. Considering how shortly after K&Ding them that they were discovered. At least on the night of 9/30/88 when they were found relatively quickly, and on 9/8/88 when Annie Chapman was found approximately 20 minutes later. And to deliberately search for another victim so close to the proximity of the first kill is too risky & foolish for a guy so streetwise since there'd be an understandable concern of being discovered by other constables on alert. Or if we are to assume that he was just lucky with slipping away 20 minutes before the discovery of AC, then he may have been gambling on that luck to work after killing Stride.

So the aforementioned considered, then it's more likely Stride wasn't killed by JTR as all accounts of what 'interrupted' JTR from dissecting her after killing her are lacking sufficient evidence to back them up. Plus if he didn't killer her, and wasn't hearing it from the other jurisdiction had they too not known, then it wouldn't be as illogical to go to Goulston Street, since he wouldn't know he'd be heading towards police searches. However had it been solely because Mitre Square was in a separate district that he went that way and killed the first woman he found which fit his liking to satisfy his frustration over Stride as the police in said district would be unaware of the Stride murder, then it'd be genius. Does anyone concur with that last part?

[lynn cates]

start spreadin' the news

Hello Sly. Your observation:

"Whether or not the police immediately believed the killings to be connected upon finding Eddowes doesn't matter as she was most likely found as a result of a search for Stride's killer, or the constable who discovered her at least knew of the Stride murder"

might need a slight emendation. Eddowes was found by a PC walking the beat--if I recall. Of course, you offer that disjunctively, so we can rule out the left disjunct.

Concerning the right disjunct, it would not be clear that the beat PC who found Eddowes would have known of Stride's killing since it was presumably a bit AFTER 1:00 AM before the police arrived at Dutfield's yard and Kate was killed in a different jurisdiction, a few blocks west.

Cheers.
LC

[Mascara & Paranoia]

Although I'm not exactly convinced Jack killed Stride (more so due to the location of her death and her throat wound), if Jack did kill her as well as Eddowes, the time between the two murders could have been because Jack was looking for another victim and/or murder site during those 45-odd minutes.

[slysnide]

Thanks for that.

So it seems he did have a headstart on the police if the Stride murder happened within 4-14 minutes before the police discovered the body, with a not so reasonable amount of time between Eddowes death and discovery. Point being that Eddowes became Point B from Stride being Point A. Whether or not the police immediately believed the killings to be connected upon finding Eddowes doesn't matter as she was most likely found as a result of a search for Stride's killer, or the constable who discovered her at least knew of the Stride murder since there was a 45 minute gap between the two which is more than enough time for word to spread. Point being that it'd seem logical to search between points A & B for the culprit. The big thing being Point C, the graffiti at Goulston Street. To double back when the search will probably encompass that area, or the other police would travel to Point B from Point A and would therefore undoubtedly pass by Point C seems ridiculous. Granted 10 minutes is enough of a headstart to get to Point C, write the graffiti and run, police would still be in the area, or on there way there. Depending on where the constable who discovered Eddowes was coming from before he found her plays a crucial role. For had he been travelling from Point A then he'd most certainly have seen Eddowes' killer on Goulston Street. Ten minutes to go back, write the graffiti, and find the quickest way out of there. But the killer would have to be quiet about it. Fast running on cobblestone streets echoes easily. And at that time of night it wouldn't be hard to hear someone coming, meaning the constable could've just missed JTR by seconds or mere minutes. But as I said, it depends upon which direction the constable who found Eddowes came from. Given the murder at Berner Street, it'd seem logical that all available police in the area would be put on alert and charged to search certain areas for the killer.

Which all leads me to my second point. It certainly DOES NOT take 45 minutes to travel from Berner Street to Mitre Square. So what was JTR doing during that time IF he were the killer of both women. Seems to illogical to hang around. Implying more so that he was interupted and valued his identity being kept secret rather than risking engaging a plausible witness. This evidence of the time gap suggests that JTR didn't kill Liz Stride. However if there was a place to hide until he got to Mitre Square or if he hid near there is uknown. Risky to hide and then come out to kill & dissect and double back to graffiti a wall and leave evidence that it was you who did it. With these circumstances it's becoming more and more probable that Stride wasn't a ripper victim. After all, it doesn't take 20-30 minutes to travel to Mitre Square from Berner Street right? If it was the same guy then he must've hidden somewhere and lost logic in deciding to come out and kill Eddowes and graffiti a wall. Or he was just really lucky.

[lynn cates]

times

Hello Sly. The coroner placed Liz's time of death between 12:46 and 12:56. Kate was alive at 1:35, discovered at 1:44--if memory serves.

The best.
LC

[slysnide]

I question if JTR murdered Liz. Berner was several blocks from Mitre granted, and Eddowes' wounds were more severe, implying that the killer needed to satisfy his frustration of not finishing the job 45 minutes earlier. What was the estimated time between death and discovery of the two women? I know they were found at 1am and 1:45am, but how long were they dead beforehand, because the first murder that night caused a big enough stir, and depending on how long thereafter the police found her depends on the probability that he managed to travel several blocks west to Mitre Square. After all, it's doubtful he was seeking a second victim that night as a guaranteed impending search of the area would follow, which would therefore justify his rage/frustration in NOT being able to strke again, unless he had enough of a headstart on the police to commit the Eddowes murder. For when you really think about it, there seems to be no logic in hanging around to kill & disect again when the police are on a manhunt not too far east. (okay so maybe the same killer did do it). But the problem in this is that the killer left Eddowes' bloody apron (or at least part of it) a couple blocks east of the Mitre Square on Goulston Street. Meaning he doubled back towards the Stride murder (granted not far at all, but towards it nonetheless) to scribble on the wall and leave when police would be on alert. And this is assuming of course that JTR killed both vics which would mean he'd obviously know of the first incident which makes such a decision to go back to scribble rather poor. However it's also possible that some crazy found the body, took the apron and wrote the graffito himself. Doubtful though. No motive to that afterall. But if JTR didn't kill Stride and only did in Eddowes then it'd justify going back since he'd not know of the first incident. If he did know of it but wasn't responsible then it was risky. If he killed both and then doubled back to write the graffiti, then that's INCREDIBLY risky.

[The Good Michael]

Albie,

Take this kind of thing to the other thread.

Mike

[albie]

Correct, Albie - and it seems Diemschitz is the more spot on version. But most people use Diemschutz anyhow - habits stick.

The best,
Fisherman

This is good. I have been trawling through Roslyn Donston's unbelievable stories for clues and he has a scene with a mix up between the name Louise and lewis.

Hmmm.

A NOVEL FORM OF CRYSTAL GAZING.

One of the things which most impressed me was that she poured water from a calabash into a little paraffin, scooped by her hands in the soft earth, but this was nothing but water, I satisfied myself by the taste. Telling me to kneel down and gaze steadfastly on the surface of the water, she told me to call any person whom I might wish to see, and here a rather curious point arose. She insisted upon having the name first. I gave her the name of a relative Lewis, which she repeated after me three times to get it fixed correctly on her memory. In repeating her incantation, a few minutes afterwards, she pronounced the word " Louise," though I did not pay much attention to it at the time. When, however, her wand waved over the water, evolving clouds of luminous smoke, I saw distinctly reflected in it, after those clouds had passed away, the face and form of a relative of mine standing in front of the audience, evidently reciting some composition. I told her that she had made a mistake. I did not acknowledge to hate seen anything for some time. At last I told her that it was the wrong person; then, naturally, argument followed. She insisted that I said Louise. However, at last I taught her the correct pronunciation of Lewis, and I saw the man I wanted sitting with his feet elevated above his head, more Americana, and calmly puffing his pipe while reading the letter. I need scarcely say that I verified the time at which these things occurred, and in both instances I found then, allowing for the difference in longitude, absolutely and exactly correct

http://www.casebook.org/dissertations/collected-donston.6.html

I feel this name is important as Lewis Diemshitz almost caught him in the act. Also, I believe the novel and play of Jeckyll and Hyde sparked him off, as it was written by someone with almost the same name Robert Stephenson/Robert Stevenson. The name of Louis being the difference. Donston also accounts a tale of a ghostly girlfriend called Louise. To be interrupted by a man with such a name would have meant something to the mad doctor, I think.

The witch doctor in the story wears an odd garment...

"Across her bare bosom was a wide scarf or baldrick made of scarlet cloth, on which were fastened four rows of what appeared like large Roman pearls, of the size of a large walnut. These apparent pearls, how-ever, were actually human intestines, bleached to a pearly whiteness, inflated, and constricted at short intervals so as to make a series of little bladders."

I don't need to point out that intestines are vital to all this.


All leads to my theory on the man...

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=2791

[DVV]

NTS,

The odds are in Jack's favor, still, there's always an outside shot it was someone else. Rippus Interruptus has always been the theory, and aside from location, which seems a bit too noisy and well-attended, I'm sticking with the theory.

Cheers,

Mike

Mike,

you can be perfect sometimes.

Ballon porté va plus loin que ballon donné.

Amitiés,
David

[Sam Flynn]

Correct, Albie - and it seems Diemschitz is the more spot on version. But most people use Diemschutz anyhow - habits stick.

The name seems to be of "Russian" (I use the term loosely) origin, and is spelled - in the Cyrillic alphabet - as "ДЫМШИЦ". How that would be rendered into Roman characters would largely depend on the phonology and orthography of the country in which it was transliterated. A fair German approximation would be "Diemschütz" or even "Dymschütz".

A reasonable approximation in English would be something like "Dimsheets", rather than "Dim$hitz" - the "И" having a more elongated sound ("ee") than the shorter "i" (as in "$hit"). Even then, the name would not have sounded precisely like that in its country of origin, as English has no simple equivalent sound for the letter "Ы". Perhaps a more faithful rendition would be more like "Duhmsheets" (or "Dermsheets" without a rolled "r").

The truth is that no romanisation - whether into the English or German alphabet - is strictly "correct".

[The Good Michael]

NTS,

The odds are in Jack's favor, still, there's always an outside shot it was someone else. Rippus Interruptus has always been the theory, and aside from location, which seems a bit too noisy and well-attended, I'm sticking with the theory.

Cheers,

Mike

[Nothing to see]

A pro, in the general area, by herself, the time frame for Jack, earlier I will admit but that means nothing. It was Jack disturbed. Nothing else makes any sense. He didn't go from Chapman to Eddowes. Jack went after Stride. He got her but he was interrupted.

[halomanuk]

sure,but that still doesn't rule out a domestic murder regardless of the hype..

[Nothing to see]

If Stride had been killed the night before then Jack who?

[halomanuk]

Hello nothing to see,
What is the difference if she was killed in a domestic encounter that night or the night before ?