Piece of Apron and the 'Juwes'

[joelhall]

to be honest this wasnt 'at or near the scene' it may look close on a map, but the distance if youre looking for words on a wall near the scene, youd only expect them to be a few yards away. this was linked as the killer dropped the rag. perhaps the message was intended for someone in the building.

fact is despite any arguements ive made here to get people to think of various senarios ive never made my mind up on any conclusion about the writing. thats why i wont discount it.

in truth, i havent the foggiest why he would have written it. nor do i have the slightest idea why he was topping people in the first place, or even exactly who they were.

at the moment, and we never know what may come to light in the future, what we know is the events which were recorded and sketchy facts surrounding them. for gods sake we dont even know who the last victim really was, and her body was found in her home!

based on that id say we shouldnt discount anything based on what we think a killer might or might not do. we should examine only the first hand evidence which we may find. and until a rational evalauation of events can eliminate this writing for us to do so is at best irresponsible, at worst farcical.

[Observer]

Hi Cap'n

'As I said, it is possible that the author of the message fully believed(at the time of writing) that the message would be understandable to those who read it.'

Nicely done, Observer, that is my own view.

Indeed Cap'n. I've never been a Kosminski fan, but it's interesting to note what one of the Doctors wrote of Kosminski namely

"he declares he is guided & his movements altogether controlled by an instinct that informs his mind; he says he knows the movements of all mankind;"

Guided in his movements. Guided to write a message?

all the best

Observer

[Canadian Mari]

not likely in autumn/winter. but of course if bad remarks were written in chalk someone would no doubt have cleaned them away. also, given this was not at the crime scene there wouldnt be much clue where to look or which graffitti was worth looking at out of all the other graffiti around whitechapel.

also if they did find any others, it would be very unlikely theyd discover when it was written... remember this example comes after the third/fourth murder (depending on who you believe was a victim).

however, was there not a rumour of some other graffiti, possibly berner street if memory serves? was this with any grounds, or corroborated, or merely a rumour in the press as i suspect?

Thanks Joel. You've got me heading to the books, a rumour in the press strikes a cord with me but I'm not sure why.
What you said about offensive scribbling (in chalk) being cleaned up, and the areas in which to look makes me think about it from another angle, which might have saved you the bother if I'd thought earlier... If constables had seen/heard of something they considered similar to the GSG, in my experience, (even when talking about it with their fellow officers) the shoe would have likely dropped. Of course, the contemporary case of the possible "Smiley Face Killers" came to mind just now, so I think it's time for me to stop the coffee!

[Observer]

Hi Sam

In fairness, I thought Graham was describing a mentally ill person, Nats.

Many serial killers haven't been "raving loonies" by any stretch of the imagination. "Joe Average", most of 'em.

You know when a serial killer is caught there seems to be any amount of people who come forward and declare to the press "Good heavens he seemed such a nice person, I'd never have guessed he was a serial killer".

A different story emerges however when an author researches the culprit. Have a look at any of the books devoted to individuals who have been found to be serial killer's, I think you'll find they do display certain traits that could not be described as normal.

all the best

Observer

[joelhall]

Thanks Joel. You've got me heading to the books, a rumour in the press strikes a cord with me but I'm not sure why.
What you said about offensive scribbling (in chalk) being cleaned up, and the areas in which to look makes me think about it from another angle, which might have saved you the bother if I'd thought earlier... If constables had seen/heard of something they considered similar to the GSG, in my experience, (even when talking about it with their fellow officers) the shoe would have likely dropped. Of course, the contemporary case of the possible "Smiley Face Killers" came to mind just now, so I think it's time for me to stop the coffee!

perhaps the beat bobbies had which is why they attached some importance to it?

[Dan Norder]

For those wondering about other chalk messages allegedly from the killer, whether merely rumored or real, you can see my article on a number of different rumors in the papers that were false at the time they were reported but later actually became a feature of a later murder.

That's one thing I think too many people are missing. It's not that this graffiti showed up out of nowhere or no reason. It conspicuously happened after news reports already let the entire world know that the killer supposedly left messages at crime scenes and other locations. Any attempt to weigh both its likelihood of being authentic and its potential meaning has to be interpreted within that context.

The conclusion I lean toward is that the Ripper had heard that he had left a message at the Chapman crime scene, but of course he hadn't. He also knew that chalk writing had just recently popped up threatening another murder. He also heard in the papers that he was supposedly a Jew, and that he supposedly already mutilated the face of a woman who was killed in another town completely. Then the next night of a Ripper murder he does mutilate a woman's face, and a chalk message is found with evidence from that crime scene right by it, and that message is saying that the Jews aren't to blame for nothin'. Seems like an attempt to be very direct in his message.

[joelhall]

hmmm. interesting theory. and a good one for giving us a reason not to discount it.

[Graham]

For those wondering about other chalk messages allegedly from the killer, whether merely rumored or real, you can see my article on a number of different rumors in the papers that were false at the time they were reported but later actually became a feature of a later murder.

That's one thing I think too many people are missing. It's not that this graffiti showed up out of nowhere or no reason. It conspicuously happened after news reports already let the entire world know that the killer supposedly left messages at crime scenes and other locations. Any attempt to weigh both its likelihood of being authentic and its potential meaning has to be interpreted within that context.

The conclusion I lean toward is that the Ripper had heard that he had left a message at the Chapman crime scene, but of course he hadn't. He also knew that chalk writing had just recently popped up threatening another murder. He also heard in the papers that he was supposedly a Jew, and that he supposedly already mutilated the face of a woman who was killed in another town completely. Then the next night of a Ripper murder he does mutilate a woman's face, and a chalk message is found with evidence from that crime scene right by it, and that message is saying that the Jews aren't to blame for nothin'. Seems like an attempt to be very direct in his message.

Dan,

If I was looking for reasons to pin the GSG on the Ripper, then I think I may well be moved to use your above reasoning as an argument. Makes sense to me. As I noted previously Walter Dew (who may or may not be taken as wholly reliable...) did say that there were loads of chalked-up messages on walls around the East End, purporting to have been written by the Ripper.

However, I still can't be convinced that the GSG was by whoever killed Eddowes. I still think it's just coincidence.

Good logic though, Dan.

I would also take this opportunity to add that, although the police obviously did take the GSG seriously, they were so short of genuine clues as to JtR's identity that something like the GSG must have been like a godsend to them.
It's the way coppers work.

Cheers,

Graham

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

I concur with Graham.

Dan's theory is a good one and shows perfect logic.

However, like Graham, I remain unconvinced of the thought of the Ripper writing it.

All the best

[Sam Flynn]

Hello Observer,

A different story emerges however when an author researches the culprit. Have a look at any of the books devoted to individuals who have been found to be serial killer's, I think you'll find they do display certain traits that could not be described as normal.

I'm aware of that, which is why the first half of your post is the important factor to consider:

You know when a serial killer is caught there seems to be any amount of people who come forward and declare to the press "Good heavens he seemed such a nice person, I'd never have guessed he was a serial killer".

...it is this, the overtly "normal" persona, that usually presents itself to the public and it is this sort of person which, all things being equal, we might expect to find in Jack the Ripper. That's not to say that he was, but the days when it was thought that the stereotypical lunatic somehow qualified as a "better" suspect should have disappeared long ago.

[Natalie Severn]

Colin,

Personally, I am surprised that you of all people actually consider the possibility that the writing to have been made by the killer.
Yes, of course somebody must have written it.
But why the Ripper? Only because he was there? Or because someone had to be writing it? What kind of reasoning is that?

The only reason to ever suspect that the writing had any connection with the killings is the placing of the apron. Besides that there is not one word in its content that points in that direction!!!!! It can never be pointed out enough.

To compare the reasoning with the nicks on Eddowes face is just silly, because it is only sensible and obvious to assume that the same man who hacked and opened up her body also did the nicks in the face. You can't apply that same reasoning to the writing, based on the sole argument that 'we knew he was there' or that 'someone' wrote it. It was a building block full of occupants, the site lay in the middle of a very busy hawking industry and no doubt many people passed through and lived there on a daily basis. What does that prove? We can't even be certain of when the writing was made. It is more likely that that 'someone' was someone other than the Ripper.

Indeed, we can't KNOW if the Ripper wrote the message on Goulston Street, but I find it hardly unlikely that he did and to me it just doesn't make sense.
As for the arguments against him writing it being unconvincing, I certainly don't agree. On the contrary, they are based on pure common sense.

All the best

On the other hand,I dont reckon the ripper was "over endowed" with "common sense" Glenn.Nothing he ever did can be reasonably worked out using the rules of "common sense"------------so why should standing by a bloody piece of apron ,in a doorway ,with a piece of chalk in his hand, writing ever such a neat piece of nonsense----that may have meant a lot to his way of thinking and nothing at all to us be strange?Everything he did was "strange" come to that,so why not the graffiti found directly above an apron piece,proven to have come from his very own handiwork?
Cheers Glenn,
Norma

[Natalie Severn]

true, but of course the body wouldnt just be noticed by police.

the fact is that if the message were intended for them there, why not write it by the body.

if we take the kelly murder, he was inside - why no message at the scene. the mutilations themselves show there was time.

we dont of course have evidence of other messages. but given the location it may have been intended for someone else, without trying to alert the authorities to his motive.

its plausible other messages may have been left and not noticed or even not reported through fear. just as its possible that the killer may have dropped the bloody rag by accident whilst writing and had to leg it before he had a chance to pick it up.

Hi Joel,
The thing about Mary Kelly is that whoever committed that murder,and I think it was certainly the Ripper myself,was very very busy performing a very " concentrated" operation.It may in fact have b een the only time the ripper completely "lost himself" in his "work".When he woke from his reverie, he may have had only one thought in his mind----how to get the hell out of there!
In Goulston Street, the murders were over---he had escaped the law,or from Mitre square anyway ,he had a few minutes to savour the event and communicate......

[Cap'n Jack]

I can see that, Natalie, he's just slaughtered some poor women, but forgets that in an instant, gets the chalk out of his pocket which he marks the tea boxes with, and writes himself a little message.
How the **** do you spell Jews?
Lucky that he has an apron with him to rub out the spellling mistakes.

[Natalie Severn]

A good theory Dan---

[joelhall]

Hi Joel,
The thing about Mary Kelly is that whoever committed that murder,and I think it was certainly the Ripper myself,was very very busy performing a very " concentrated" operation.

could you explain what you mean by concentrated? just want to make sure were understanding each other right

joel