Piece of Apron and the 'Juwes'

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

I concur with Graham.

Dan's theory is a good one and shows perfect logic.

However, like Graham, I remain unconvinced of the thought of the Ripper writing it.

All the best

[Graham]

For those wondering about other chalk messages allegedly from the killer, whether merely rumored or real, you can see my article on a number of different rumors in the papers that were false at the time they were reported but later actually became a feature of a later murder.

That's one thing I think too many people are missing. It's not that this graffiti showed up out of nowhere or no reason. It conspicuously happened after news reports already let the entire world know that the killer supposedly left messages at crime scenes and other locations. Any attempt to weigh both its likelihood of being authentic and its potential meaning has to be interpreted within that context.

The conclusion I lean toward is that the Ripper had heard that he had left a message at the Chapman crime scene, but of course he hadn't. He also knew that chalk writing had just recently popped up threatening another murder. He also heard in the papers that he was supposedly a Jew, and that he supposedly already mutilated the face of a woman who was killed in another town completely. Then the next night of a Ripper murder he does mutilate a woman's face, and a chalk message is found with evidence from that crime scene right by it, and that message is saying that the Jews aren't to blame for nothin'. Seems like an attempt to be very direct in his message.

Dan,

If I was looking for reasons to pin the GSG on the Ripper, then I think I may well be moved to use your above reasoning as an argument. Makes sense to me. As I noted previously Walter Dew (who may or may not be taken as wholly reliable...) did say that there were loads of chalked-up messages on walls around the East End, purporting to have been written by the Ripper.

However, I still can't be convinced that the GSG was by whoever killed Eddowes. I still think it's just coincidence.

Good logic though, Dan.

I would also take this opportunity to add that, although the police obviously did take the GSG seriously, they were so short of genuine clues as to JtR's identity that something like the GSG must have been like a godsend to them.
It's the way coppers work.

Cheers,

Graham

[joelhall]

hmmm. interesting theory. and a good one for giving us a reason not to discount it.

[Dan Norder]

For those wondering about other chalk messages allegedly from the killer, whether merely rumored or real, you can see my article on a number of different rumors in the papers that were false at the time they were reported but later actually became a feature of a later murder.

That's one thing I think too many people are missing. It's not that this graffiti showed up out of nowhere or no reason. It conspicuously happened after news reports already let the entire world know that the killer supposedly left messages at crime scenes and other locations. Any attempt to weigh both its likelihood of being authentic and its potential meaning has to be interpreted within that context.

The conclusion I lean toward is that the Ripper had heard that he had left a message at the Chapman crime scene, but of course he hadn't. He also knew that chalk writing had just recently popped up threatening another murder. He also heard in the papers that he was supposedly a Jew, and that he supposedly already mutilated the face of a woman who was killed in another town completely. Then the next night of a Ripper murder he does mutilate a woman's face, and a chalk message is found with evidence from that crime scene right by it, and that message is saying that the Jews aren't to blame for nothin'. Seems like an attempt to be very direct in his message.

[joelhall]

Thanks Joel. You've got me heading to the books, a rumour in the press strikes a cord with me but I'm not sure why.
What you said about offensive scribbling (in chalk) being cleaned up, and the areas in which to look makes me think about it from another angle, which might have saved you the bother if I'd thought earlier... If constables had seen/heard of something they considered similar to the GSG, in my experience, (even when talking about it with their fellow officers) the shoe would have likely dropped. Of course, the contemporary case of the possible "Smiley Face Killers" came to mind just now, so I think it's time for me to stop the coffee!

perhaps the beat bobbies had which is why they attached some importance to it?

[Observer]

Hi Sam

In fairness, I thought Graham was describing a mentally ill person, Nats.

Many serial killers haven't been "raving loonies" by any stretch of the imagination. "Joe Average", most of 'em.

You know when a serial killer is caught there seems to be any amount of people who come forward and declare to the press "Good heavens he seemed such a nice person, I'd never have guessed he was a serial killer".

A different story emerges however when an author researches the culprit. Have a look at any of the books devoted to individuals who have been found to be serial killer's, I think you'll find they do display certain traits that could not be described as normal.

all the best

Observer

[Canadian Mari]

not likely in autumn/winter. but of course if bad remarks were written in chalk someone would no doubt have cleaned them away. also, given this was not at the crime scene there wouldnt be much clue where to look or which graffitti was worth looking at out of all the other graffiti around whitechapel.

also if they did find any others, it would be very unlikely theyd discover when it was written... remember this example comes after the third/fourth murder (depending on who you believe was a victim).

however, was there not a rumour of some other graffiti, possibly berner street if memory serves? was this with any grounds, or corroborated, or merely a rumour in the press as i suspect?

Thanks Joel. You've got me heading to the books, a rumour in the press strikes a cord with me but I'm not sure why.
What you said about offensive scribbling (in chalk) being cleaned up, and the areas in which to look makes me think about it from another angle, which might have saved you the bother if I'd thought earlier... If constables had seen/heard of something they considered similar to the GSG, in my experience, (even when talking about it with their fellow officers) the shoe would have likely dropped. Of course, the contemporary case of the possible "Smiley Face Killers" came to mind just now, so I think it's time for me to stop the coffee!

[Observer]

Hi Cap'n

'As I said, it is possible that the author of the message fully believed(at the time of writing) that the message would be understandable to those who read it.'

Nicely done, Observer, that is my own view.

Indeed Cap'n. I've never been a Kosminski fan, but it's interesting to note what one of the Doctors wrote of Kosminski namely

"he declares he is guided & his movements altogether controlled by an instinct that informs his mind; he says he knows the movements of all mankind;"

Guided in his movements. Guided to write a message?

all the best

Observer

[joelhall]

to be honest this wasnt 'at or near the scene' it may look close on a map, but the distance if youre looking for words on a wall near the scene, youd only expect them to be a few yards away. this was linked as the killer dropped the rag. perhaps the message was intended for someone in the building.

fact is despite any arguements ive made here to get people to think of various senarios ive never made my mind up on any conclusion about the writing. thats why i wont discount it.

in truth, i havent the foggiest why he would have written it. nor do i have the slightest idea why he was topping people in the first place, or even exactly who they were.

at the moment, and we never know what may come to light in the future, what we know is the events which were recorded and sketchy facts surrounding them. for gods sake we dont even know who the last victim really was, and her body was found in her home!

based on that id say we shouldnt discount anything based on what we think a killer might or might not do. we should examine only the first hand evidence which we may find. and until a rational evalauation of events can eliminate this writing for us to do so is at best irresponsible, at worst farcical.

[Observer]

Hi Graham

Joel,

I repeat my question from an earlier post: why didn't the Ripper leave similar messages at or near the scenes of his earlier murders?

Cheers,

Graham

Why didn't the Ripper arrange Nichol's belongings ala Chapman's, why did he rifle the pockets of Eddowes and instead of arranging her meagre belongings ala Chapman he left them willy nilly? You can't discount the message (as having been penned by the Ripper) on the grounds that he failed to leave any messaes at any of the other venues.

all the best

Observer

[joelhall]

Thinking about the idea that JtR may/may not have written messages at the scenes of other murders, I don't remember ever reading about the police sending officers to search for more graffiti, can anyone correct me? With police working from the GSG being written by the Ripper, a search for further examples seems logical. (Yes, it was written in chalk and not lead paint, I accept it might not last long, however, it also could have lasted pretty well, so all things considered looking for it would be worth a go.)
Thanks,
Mari

not likely in autumn/winter. but of course if bad remarks were written in chalk someone would no doubt have cleaned them away. also, given this was not at the crime scene there wouldnt be much clue where to look or which graffitti was worth looking at out of all the other graffiti around whitechapel.

also if they did find any others, it would be very unlikely theyd discover when it was written... remember this example comes after the third/fourth murder (depending on who you believe was a victim).

however, was there not a rumour of some other graffiti, possibly berner street if memory serves? was this with any grounds, or corroborated, or merely a rumour in the press as i suspect?

[Canadian Mari]

Thinking about the idea that JtR may/may not have written messages at the scenes of other murders, I don't remember ever reading about the police sending officers to search for more graffiti, can anyone correct me? With police working from the GSG being written by the Ripper, a search for further examples seems logical. (Yes, it was written in chalk and not lead paint, I accept it might not last long, however, it also could have lasted pretty well, so all things considered looking for it would be worth a go.)
Thanks,
Mari

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Roy,

No it was not redundant to the apron. Like a wild animal marks his territory, so did Jack leave his sign. A statement in which he boldy, defiantly gives those that malign the Jews somthing to chew on.

...as if throwing an apron covered in gentile blood, piss and $hit into a Jewish doorway wasn't insult enough, he feels compelled to write a message with an ambiguous payload, seemingly saying something akin to "Cheating shirkers!".

Talk about ending on a weak note.

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

No it was not redundant to the apron. Like a wild animal marks his territory, so did Jack leave his sign. A statement in which he boldy, defiantly gives those that malign the Jews somthing to chew on. The murders.

It is an an important clue to interpet. Then we can begin to close the net around a suspect, or at least a suspect type.

Roy

Roy,

You are expressing yourself too much in absolutes, as if they were facts.

My personal opinion - and that is what it is, nothing more, nothing less - is that the writing had nothing whatsoever to do with either the apron or the murders. I don't see any factual evidence that points in that direction.

As I see it, it was not a clue at all, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't have recorded it. Of course I agree on that it should have been photographed, since it was in the direct vicinity of THE important clue, the apron.
But again - that doesn't mean that it was a valid clue as such. Only that the Met failed in following necessary normal procedures for different reasons.

The only important clue here is the apron , since we know it came from Eddowes - the validity and authenticy of the writing, on the other hand, will always be a matter of debate.

All the best

[Roy Corduroy]

As for the coincidences of Jewish elements on several sites - it would be VERY hard to find anything that wouldn't in some way concern the Jews in East End during this time! This was an area with mostly Jewish or Eastern European immigrant population, so I don't see Jewish elements in a number of murders as that strange a coincidence - far from it, it doesn't surprise me at all.

Glenn, you make an astute obervation firmly grounded in historical study. Likewise, we must consider whether anti-semitism colored attitudes then. Having weighed all that, however, I feel I am in the mainstream right alongside Insp. Mcwilliam who, 120 years ago thought it important to have it photographed.

No it was not redundant to the apron. Like a wild animal marks his territory, so did Jack leave his sign. A statement in which he boldy, defiantly gives those that malign the Jews somthing to chew on. The murders.

It is an an important clue to interpet. Then we can begin to close the net around a suspect, or at least a suspect type.

Roy