Was Eddowes Already Dead, When Seen By Lawende & Levy?

[Natasha]

I know that sounds mad, but could that be possible? I'm not suggesting that she was hacked up at this point, but Lawende never said he heard them talking, and he was quite a distance away. Also Levy said the area in which he saw the couple standing was not well lit.

[pinkmoon]

Lawende saw a man and women near an area where prostitutes conducted their business of that there is no doubt could the couple he saw have entered the square and disturbed the killer.

[Wickerman]

Nats.
It is not mad, on the contrary it is quite conceivable that the couple seen by Lawende & Co. were not Eddowes & her killer.
Lawende never identified the body because he told police he did not see the woman's face, only that the clothes looked similar.

There has always been a rather controversial timing issue between Lawende's sighting at about 1:35, and Watkins discovery of the body at 1:44.
This controversy is resolved if we recognise that Lawende had not necessarily seen Eddowes, but another woman and her client.

Swanson also acknowledged this possibility.

The attack in Mitre Square was already in progress when Lawende & Co. stepped out of the Club.

[GUT]

G'day Natasha

Do you mean it was her they saw, and she was dead, but perhaps being held upright, OR

She was dead and they saw another couple?

[DJA]

Nats.
It is not mad, on the contrary it is quite conceivable that the couple seen by Lawende & Co. were not Eddowes & her killer.


There has always been a rather controversial timing issue between Lawende's sighting at about 1:35, and Watkins discovery of the body at 1:44.
This controversy is resolved if we recognise that Lawende had not necessarily seen Eddowes, but another woman and her client.
.

Perhaps Eddowes was strangled inside 6 Mitre Street before 1.30 am and dragged into the Square proper via the fence gate immediately after Watkins passed through.

[Wickerman]

Watkins was previously in the square about 1:30, and if he was thorough all was as it should be. His beat took 12-14 minutes by his own estimation, so whatever occurred, did so within that time.
Yes, Eddowes may have been strangled inside one of the empty houses but I would expect the police to have searched these premises for recent activity.
I'm not sure what time would have been saved considering the killer then must carry the body outside. Whether this occurred or not does not change a great deal.

The distance, from where Lawende saw that couple, then down Church Passage and across the Square, is approx. 160 feet, which, if walked casually so as to not alarm the victim, would add an extra minute or two.

If we accept Lawende's account, the actual time available to the killer for murder & mutilation in that far corner of the square is more likely 7-8 minutes at the most.

If we eliminate Lawende's sighting, we see 12-14 minutes available to the killer between Watkins leaving the square about 1:30, and his return at 1:44.
PC Harvey quite simply could not see anyone crouched in that far dark corner, especially if they paused and stayed quiet until he left.

[DJA]

Whether this occurred or not does not change a great deal.

PC Harvey quite simply could not see anyone crouched in that far dark corner, especially if they paused and stayed quiet until he left.

Actually would explain a lot of the timing,including GSG,which could have been to draw attention away from Mitre Street and Mitre Square.

Where do you reckon Eddowes' other kidney was?

Harvey was actually employed and equipped to look.

[Rosella]

Surely there would be even less light inside the empty houses than out in the open air, dark though it was? Wherever the murder and mutilations were performed I think Jack must have had incredible night vision!

Didn't Lawende, Levy et al see the couple apparently amiably chatting? IMO it would be incredibly difficult to hold up a dead person's head as well as their body, unless the murderer rested the head on his chest. I'm reminded of post mortem Victorian photos of dead children and the like. There were braces and stands used by the photographer in aiming for a natural look.

[Damaso Marte]

OP is not making the run-of-the-mill suggestion that the couple seen by Lawende was not Eddowes with her killer. He appears to be making the more extraordinary suggestion that Eddowes was killed while standing.

I do not believe there is any forensic basis for such a belief. In fact, I believe the evidence suggests that Eddowes was cut on the ground, and therefore killed on the ground. But, Eddowes was somehow subdued before her killer placed her on the ground. We have no idea how that happened. The evidence provides no suggestion.

[GUT]

OP is not making the run-of-the-mill suggestion that the couple seen by Lawende was not Eddowes with her killer. He appears to be making the more extraordinary suggestion that Eddowes was killed while standing.

I do not believe there is any forensic basis for such a belief. In fact, I believe the evidence suggests that Eddowes was cut on the ground, and therefore killed on the ground. But, Eddowes was somehow subdued before her killer placed her on the ground. We have no idea how that happened. The evidence provides no suggestion.

that's what I'm trying to work, which of these do they mean.

[Phil Carter]

Eddowes leaves Bishopsgate Police Station at 1.00am. It normally takes 8-10 mins to get to Mitre Square.
Watkins' beat would normally place him there 1.00pm, 1.15pm, 1.30pm..roughly speaking. No policeman sees or notices Eddowes during her walk. Nor any other person with her for that matter. She could arrive after Watkins' 1.15pm patrol round. But she was not seen at 1.30pm because the body was not there then..according to testimony. The night watchman was taking his nightly smoke, we are told, usually around 1.00pm onwards. He hears and sees nothing.
The other policeman. .who walks the entire length of the passage, sees nothing on his previous rounds either.

The testimony of the two doctors here is critical. They estimate the time of death to have been around the 1.40-1.45 mark.
It is unlikely both would be so far out in estimate if the body was there around 1.20pm. So the likelihood is that she was dead sometime after 1.30pm..Watkins next patrol. The windows of opportunity can only be relaxed and if two things occur..
1. The doctors are both mistaken in their estimated time of death.
2. The policemen's accounts of their times and movements and testimony are erroneous.



Phil

[DJA]

The simple truth of the matter is that nobody has seen Eddowes alive in Mitre Square at all.
The last 45 minutes of her life are unaccounted.

[Trevor Marriott]

Watkins was previously in the square about 1:30, and if he was thorough all was as it should be. His beat took 12-14 minutes by his own estimation, so whatever occurred, did so within that time.
Yes, Eddowes may have been strangled inside one of the empty houses but I would expect the police to have searched these premises for recent activity.
I'm not sure what time would have been saved considering the killer then must carry the body outside. Whether this occurred or not does not change a great deal.

The distance, from where Lawende saw that couple, then down Church Passage and across the Square, is approx. 160 feet, which, if walked casually so as to not alarm the victim, would add an extra minute or two.

If we accept Lawende's account, the actual time available to the killer for murder & mutilation in that far corner of the square is more likely 7-8 minutes at the most.

If we eliminate Lawende's sighting, we see 12-14 minutes available to the killer between Watkins leaving the square about 1:30, and his return at 1:44.
PC Harvey quite simply could not see anyone crouched in that far dark corner, especially if they paused and stayed quiet until he left.

Hi
What you have failed to highlight is the fact that had the killer been in the process of committing the murder, and from where he would have been in the square, he would have been able to see and hear Pc Harvey coming down the passage towards him, and would have been able to quickly exit the square via Mitre St without ever being seen by Harvey.

Which if Lawende did see Eddowes and the killer it actually cuts the time frame down to 5 mins only for them to walk into the square to the murder spot and for the killer to carry out the murder and mutilations.

If you were the killer and looked up and saw a uniform Pc walking down the passage in your direction would you stop the killing, front it out and just hope that the pc would not carry on down the path and walk right up to you. no you would you would be out of there like a jack rabbitt soon as you saw him.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[lynn cates]

strangulation

Hello DJA.

1. No signs of strangulation on Kate.

2. Why move her from #6?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

milk and sugar, please

Hello Jon.

"If we eliminate Lawende's sighting, we see 12-14 minutes available to the killer between Watkins leaving the square about 1:30, and his return at 1:44."

And if we eliminate Watkin's story because he was having a cuppa?

Cheers.
LC