Was Eddowes Already Dead, When Seen By Lawende & Levy?

[Natasha]

I think the times were a bit off as well. If that is the case, was the killer using Eddowes apron to wipe his face?

Sorry I meant hands.

Is it possible that Eddowes lost the piece of apron before being locked up?

How reliable was Long? He messed up in regards to the GSG, and the coroner, jury etc questioned his mistake in regards to the spelling and placing of 'not' in the GSG. Also he didn't even know the name of the other officer on the next beat. Why not get back up and knock on all the doors to investigate further? The apron may have been there longer than Long said. We know that time keeping isn't really accurate in the case as a whole.

I have always wondered weather one of the coppers had placed the apron near the GSG. The apron was apparently found at five to three, why would the killer hang around the area for so long? What was he doing? I don't think that the ripper lived in Goulston St.

[Natasha]

There were woodcut sketches purporting to resemble the men seen with Stride & Eddowes. The sketches appeared in the papers, though this was not authorised by the police. I wonder weather anyone will ever find the papers that contain these sketches of the following suspects: (I know the descriptions below are on CB, just thought I would add them here)

At 12.35 a.m., 30th September, with Elizabeth Stride, found murdered at one am., same date, in Berner street a man, aged 28, height 5ft. 8in., complexion dark, small dark moustache; dress, black diagonial coat, hard felt hat, collar and tie respectable appearance; carried a parcel wrapped up in a newspaper.

At 12.45 a.m., 30th, with same woman, in Berner street, a man, aged about 30, height 5ft. 5in., complexion fair, dark hair, small brown moustache, full face, broad shoulders; dress, dark jacket and trousers, black cap with peak.

With Catherine Eddows, in Church-passage, leading to Mitre square, where she was found murdered at 1.45 a.m., same date, a man, age 30, height 5ft. 7 or 8in., complexion fair, moustache fair, medium build; dress, pepper and salt colour loose jacket, grey cloth cap, with peak of the same material, reddish neckerchief tied in knot; appearance of a sailor.


Source: Aberdare Times 17 November 1888

I'm not sure weather these sketches referred to are the pictures in the penny dreadfuls. Most probably they are.

[Natasha]

Not sure weather this has been mentioned before, but there was a report made by Thomas Eade in the papers (Aberdare Times) that he saw a man with a double peaked hat on, on the 8th Sep:

Thomas Eade, signalman, in the employ of the East London Railway, said that on Saturday, Sept. 8, he was proceeding along the Cambridge road, towards Whitechapel, when he saw a man walking along who had such an extraordinary look about him that the witness could not help looking at him. He seemed to have a wooden arm. When opposite the Foresters' Arms the witness saw a knife down the man's trousers. The blade was sticking out about four inches. The man appeared to be about 35 years of age, 5ft. 8in. in height, and dark. He wore a short, dark brown jacket, a pair of white overalls over a pair of dark trousers, and had on a double peaked cap. The witness, seeing some people also watching the man, asked them to follow with him, but they refused, and the man was lost sight of. The man had the appearance of a workman. By the jury He did not appear to be a very strong fellow. The witness did not see what kind of knife it was

[Rosella]

Sugden (Page 212) has The Star printing, (October 1st) 'From two different sources we have the story that a man, when passing through Church Lane at about half past one, saw a man sitting on a doorstep and wiping his hands. As everyone is on the look-out for the murderer the man looked at the stranger with a certain amount of suspicion, whereupon he tried to conceal his face. He is described as a man who wore a short jacket and a sailor's hat.'

Sugden remarks 'The fascinating thing about the Church Lane report is that it appeared before any of the other descriptions had been published. Only a version of PC Smith's description, with references to a black diagonal coat and hard felt hat, was then in circulation.'

[Paddy]

Sketch from illustrated Police News 20th Oct 1888

Pat..........

[Abby Normal]

Hi Rosella, paddy

As both your posts show-the ripper was more than likely wearing a peaked cap that night and was probably the same suspect seen by all the various witnesses that night.

[Abby Normal]

Hi John.
Peaked caps were very common, there was a variety of styles and types. Pick up any street scene photo in Victorian London and try count them.

Not only was there the English Sailors cap, a Greek sailors cap, a Fishermans cap, there was also a military cap, a Newsboy cap, Railway porters cap, Boilerman cap, and even the Deerstalker. And those are only a few, then there were foreign caps worn by East Europeans, unfamiliar styles to the English eye. To say "a peaked cap" really means nothing, you might as well say he was wearing boots.

To say "a peaked cap" really means nothing,

Yeah, its so meaningless that Abberline made a point to use it in describing the ripper.

[Natasha]

I'll ask again:

What about the lights that had been tapered with?

Was there mention that the light outside Kelly's room was also playing up (I'm sure I read that somewhere), just like the light in Mitre Square?

[Natasha]

Hi Pat,

Thanks for the pic, I remember now, that I saw this pic in a book ages ago.

[DJA]

I'll ask again:

What about the lights that had been tapered with?

Gas lamps are like that.

Mantles "wear out",seals perish,etc.

Kerosene lamp wicks burn out.

[DJA]

Pat..........

That guy looks like a Postie.

Shades of the Cleveland Street Scandal?

[Rosella]

Hi Natasha,
I can't find anything about the gas lamp in Miller's Court being tampered with, but there was only one lamp, I believe, and that was attached to No 27 Dorset St, presumably to guide customers to McCarthy's shop.

From 'The Scotsman' November 10th 1888. 'Lighting in the court was patchy. There was a gas wall-lamp directly opposite the door to Mary's room, which was alight until around 4am, the light from which is thrown nearly on to the passage and which would certainly have thrown light on Mary's door.'

With regard to the time it was lit, Harry Bowyer stated at Mary's inquest that McCarthy's shop sometimes stayed open late, until 3am sometimes. The gas lamp would have been there for the benefit of customers going at night to McCarthy's shop.

It was a private lamp, therefore, and I can't imagine him being the sort of man who kept the lamp burning after he had shut up shop for the night (or early morning.) Paying for gas when he didn't need to was probably not his thing.

As he was also responsible for maintaining the mantle etc who knows what condition the lamp was in, though it does seem to have been working on that November morning, till about 3am at least.

[Wickerman]

That guy looks like a Postie.

Hmm, if you compare the I.P.N. of 24th Nov., that 'Israel Schwartz' looks a lot like George Hutchinson.
I guess the press artist lacked a little artistic inspiration.

[DJA]

Hmm, if you compare the I.P.N. of 24th Nov., that 'Israel Schwartz' looks a lot like George Hutchinson.
I guess the press artist lacked a little artistic inspiration.

Yep,I see your point.

Schwartz actually has the broad shoulders

[Wickerman]

Yep, and Stride and her attacker look like they are about to break into the two-step...