Was Eddowes Already Dead, When Seen By Lawende & Levy?

[Wickerman]

That sounds as if it might clear him from suspicion of being the Ripper, if it is true as stated by another poster in this thread, that "the body was not there at 1:30 am"-- but I think many of these timings seem to be approximate ones. If people in Whitechapel rarely owned watches, they would estimate the time and I think would probably round to the closest hour or closest hour. I think the most accurate timings would be by those who noted they had looked at a watch or a clock.

Church Lane is a bit too close to Berner St., assuming the same killer argument.
It has been 30 minutes since Stride was murdered, yet this man is only 5 minutes walk away - that doesn't sit right.
And, there is still another 5 or so minutes to get to Mitre Square, find a victim, a bit of small talk, get to the darkest corner, murder & mutilate, then get out.
No, either, as you say, the time is once again suspect, or this man was not involved.

[Scott Nelson]

The time was suspect. The man seen wiping his hands in Church Lane was quite possibly the killer of Eddowes.

[Abby Normal]

The time was suspect. The man seen wiping his hands in Church Lane was quite possibly the killer of Eddowes.

Bingo Scott
And obviously possibly the killer of Stride also.

Its also interesting to note that this story appeared in the press early, before any of the other stories came out about descriptions of suspects that night.

Most importantly, the man was described as wearing a peaked cap, same as all the other "suspects" described by witnesses the night of the double event, including Lawenda's man.

The inference being of course was that this man, who I call peaked cap man, is the same man that was seen with Stride by the various witnesses, killed her, then was seen cleaning up in Church Lane en route to Mitre square, where he was seen by Lawende and co. with Eddowes and then killed her.

The clues are there for anyone to see, and frankly I am quite surprised at the dearth of people who note this simple and obvious connection.

The ripper was wearing a peaked cap the night of the double event.

[John G]

Bingo Scott
And obviously possibly the killer of Stride also.

Its also interesting to note that this story appeared in the press early, before any of the other stories came out about descriptions of suspects that night.

Most importantly, the man was described as wearing a peaked cap, same as all the other "suspects" described by witnesses the night of the double event, including Lawenda's man.

The inference being of course was that this man, who I call peaked cap man, is the same man that was seen with Stride by the various witnesses, killed her, then was seen cleaning up in Church Lane en route to Mitre square, where he was seen by Lawende and co. with Eddowes and then killed her.

The clues are there for anyone to see, and frankly I am quite surprised at the dearth of people who note this simple and obvious connection.

The ripper was wearing a peaked cap the night of the double event.

Hi Abby,

Do we know how popular this type of headgear, I.e peaked-cap, would have been at the time?

[Harry D]

The time was suspect. The man seen wiping his hands in Church Lane was quite possibly the killer of Eddowes.

Hello, Scott.

I'd be very careful about putting too much faith in an unattributed newspaper report from a second-hand source. Life did go on outside the Ripper murders and people were up to all sorts in the early hours of the morning. I don't know if I would expect the killer to be sat in the street brazenly cleaning himself up, anyway.

[Trevor Marriott]

Bingo Scott
And obviously possibly the killer of Stride also.

Its also interesting to note that this story appeared in the press early, before any of the other stories came out about descriptions of suspects that night.

Most importantly, the man was described as wearing a peaked cap, same as all the other "suspects" described by witnesses the night of the double event, including Lawenda's man.

The inference being of course was that this man, who I call peaked cap man, is the same man that was seen with Stride by the various witnesses, killed her, then was seen cleaning up in Church Lane en route to Mitre square, where he was seen by Lawende and co. with Eddowes and then killed her.

The clues are there for anyone to see, and frankly I am quite surprised at the dearth of people who note this simple and obvious connection.

The ripper was wearing a peaked cap the night of the double event.

I wouldnt get too excited about this if this is the only reference. The newspaper in question is based 300 miles north from London. So we have to ask how did they get it and why not any of the national papers

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abby,

Do we know how popular this type of headgear, I.e peaked-cap, would have been at the time?

Hi JohnG
Honestly-I believe it was very popular-probably analogous to the popularity of baseball style caps are today in the US.

Nevertheless, if the night of the double event and the suspects were transposed to modern times and the witnesses all described "suspects" wearing baseball caps, I think that any smart detective would probably come to the conclusion that it was the same man instead of the highly unlikely chance that they were all different men who just happened to be all wearing baseball style caps. and who all just happened to be suspects.

As i said before its a pretty easy connection to make, and Im bamboozled by the lack of posters who can make this obvious connection-or even bring it up as a possibility.

Luckily, though it wasn't lost on Abberline, who described the ripper as wearing a peaked cap. Which the significance is of such importance to me that I now include the quote in my sig.

[pinkmoon]

The time was suspect. The man seen wiping his hands in Church Lane was quite possibly the killer of Eddowes.

We can't verify the source of this story so to use it as "fact" is just plain wrong. I will concede there's a slight possibility it's true or at least published by a newspaper editor in good faith that his reporter had done his job right but to try and use it as a lynch pin to a theory is not allowed I'm afraid.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Nats.
It is not mad, on the contrary it is quite conceivable that the couple seen by Lawende & Co. were not Eddowes & her killer.
Lawende never identified the body because he told police he did not see the woman's face, only that the clothes looked similar.

There has always been a rather controversial timing issue between Lawende's sighting at about 1:35, and Watkins discovery of the body at 1:44.
This controversy is resolved if we recognise that Lawende had not necessarily seen Eddowes, but another woman and her client.

Swanson also acknowledged this possibility.

The attack in Mitre Square was already in progress when Lawende & Co. stepped out of the Club.

I think Lawende had them passing Mitre Square at 1.35 and Lave had them leaving the club 5 minutes later, meaning passing at 1.40am.

Balance of probability, though, Lawende and associates saw JTR with Eddowes, and it wasn't only the clothes but the height was about right, too.

Not a comfortable conclusion for some, because people have to then jump through hoops to explain why he wasn't dark, or tall, or broad shouldered; and Kosminski and associated low class Polish Jews are pretty much out of the equation, which then puts into doubt Anderson's memoirs and the whole marginalia.

[Wickerman]

Do we know how popular this type of headgear, I.e peaked-cap, would have been at the time?

Hi John.
Peaked caps were very common, there was a variety of styles and types. Pick up any street scene photo in Victorian London and try count them.

Not only was there the English Sailors cap, a Greek sailors cap, a Fishermans cap, there was also a military cap, a Newsboy cap, Railway porters cap, Boilerman cap, and even the Deerstalker. And those are only a few, then there were foreign caps worn by East Europeans, unfamiliar styles to the English eye. To say "a peaked cap" really means nothing, you might as well say he was wearing boots.

[Wickerman]

Hello, Scott.

I'd be very careful about putting too much faith in an unattributed newspaper report from a second-hand source. Life did go on outside the Ripper murders and people were up to all sorts in the early hours of the morning. I don't know if I would expect the killer to be sat in the street brazenly cleaning himself up, anyway.

Whitechapel being the rough place it was, the man could have been attacked by thugs, Sadler fell victim to the same treatment.
There's no shortage of reason's why a man would be cleaning his hands, it doesn't make him a murderer.

[Wickerman]

The time was suspect. The man seen wiping his hands in Church Lane was quite possibly the killer of Eddowes.

But didn't the killer wipe his hands on the apron, he discarded that already - the killers hands are clean.

[Natasha]

Hi Natasha.
The time was about 1:30 am, if I recall, and it was Church Lane, just a little north or N/W of Berner St.
The press report gave no source.

OK, found it.
"A man says he saw an individual sitting on some steps in Church lane at half past one this morning, wiping his hands, concealing his face meanwhile."
North Eastern Daily Gazette, 1 Oct. 1888.

Hi Jon,

Thanks for the info.

I do wonder weather this was the killer. If we could find a more detailed account of this man in the papers. Like what he was wearing etc.

The time was suspect. The man seen wiping his hands in Church Lane was quite possibly the killer of Eddowes.

Hi Scott,

I think the times were a bit off as well. If that is the case, was the killer using Eddowes apron to wipe his face?

[Wickerman]

I think Lawende had them passing Mitre Square at 1.35 and Lave had them leaving the club 5 minutes later, meaning passing at 1.40am.

I thought they both said essentially the same thing.

Lawende:
We left there to go out at ½ past one and we left the house about 5 minutes later

Levy:
We got up to go home at ½ past one We came out about 3 or 4 minutes after the half hour

Lawende said 1:35, Levy said 1:33-4.

Watkins, by his watch said, he found the body at 1:44, so about 9 or 10 minutes for everything to happen, including the walk of about 160 ft from the corner of Duke St. to the murder location in the far corner of the square.
Lawende & Watkins both had watches.

As for Lawende recognising the woman's clothes..
The wording varies in the different records.

My belief is that they were the same clothes

he believed the articles were the same

I recognise them as the sort of dress worn by that woman.

he thought they were the same clothes

Nothing definite.

[Natasha]

There were woodcut sketches purporting to resemble the men seen with Stride & Eddowes. The sketches appeared in the papers, though this was not authorised by the police. I wonder weather anyone will ever find the papers that contain these sketches of the following suspects: (I know the descriptions below are on CB, just thought I would add them here)

At 12.35 a.m., 30th September, with Elizabeth Stride, found murdered at one am., same date, in Berner street a man, aged 28, height 5ft. 8in., complexion dark, small dark moustache; dress, black diagonial coat, hard felt hat, collar and tie respectable appearance; carried a parcel wrapped up in a newspaper.

At 12.45 a.m., 30th, with same woman, in Berner street, a man, aged about 30, height 5ft. 5in., complexion fair, dark hair, small brown moustache, full face, broad shoulders; dress, dark jacket and trousers, black cap with peak.

With Catherine Eddows, in Church-passage, leading to Mitre square, where she was found murdered at 1.45 a.m., same date, a man, age 30, height 5ft. 7 or 8in., complexion fair, moustache fair, medium build; dress, pepper and salt colour loose jacket, grey cloth cap, with peak of the same material, reddish neckerchief tied in knot; appearance of a sailor.


Source: Aberdare Times 17 November 1888