September 30,1888- The night of Clues?

[Fiver]

Hello Patrick,

You said thoughts on your post are welcome. So....

You have made several assumptions here:

That the B.S man was the killer of Stride;

That the killer wrote the GSG; and that

The message of the GSG is intended to be anti-Jewish.

All of those assertions are unproven.

c.d.

He's also assuming that the apron piece was deliberately placed there instead of casually discarded.

[Patrick Differ]

Hi Tom- I believe like everyone else my posts are objective based on available information regarding Whitechapel in that era. Regarding Schwartz and Lawende I think you are correct that they did not state definitively that the suspect was Jewish in appearance. However there seems to be a debate as which witness refused to identify a fellow Jew. Its not a bias and I am open minded about who the killer might have been. Schwartz and Lawende seem to be the two witnesses when it comes to this identification. If you add witnesses Long and Hutchinson to the analysis you come up with the witness pool leaning heavily to a Jewish suspect. If you add Press reports regarding Joseph Hyam Levy's obstinance and inference he knows something then it's hard to discount his first cousin Jacob Levy as a suspect. Where they All wrong? I guess that's possible.

The question for me is could the killer be an anglicized Jew who while of Jewish appearance was actually a local and not an immigrant Jew and if so, was there a motive other than hatred for Prostitutes he blames for his condition. Revenge is a powerful motive. This led me to read Fishmans works on the East End that exposes the dynamic between Anglicized and Immigrant Jews and that period of human interaction in 1888.

Part of my approach is to try and understand any relationships between actual known events and suspects. In other words things like the Maybrick Diary or the Eddowes skirt with flounces. This approach led me to the relationship between a convicted criminal lunatic ( Jacob Levy 1886 to 1887) an anglicized Jew, and his neighbor and competitor and convictor, Hyman Sampson- an Immigrant from Poland. This dynamic ended in tragedy for Levy, a Legacy anglicized Jew at the hands of an immigrant Jew. Fishman paints a picture here and there is no better example than Levy v Sampson.

My next question was with regard to the events of Stride and Eddowes and any possible relationship to Lipski or any other event. There are and I've listed some but further explanation is required. Here are questions I was trying to answer:

1. Was there any relationship between the Lipski murder and the killer? I found that Leah Levy, married to Abraham Levy but estranged is likely cousin to JH Levy and who lived accross the hall from Miriam Angel . I also learned Lipski had the same barrister as Levy. An incompetent Gentile drunkard named Geoghagan. Levy was convicted first then Lipski.
2. Was there a reason other than opportunity for the location of Dutfields Yard? The International Working Mens group, immigrant Socialists, could have been a target. Attention was given to it and in bad light if you wanted to stir that pot. The shout Lipski could also have been a shout of awareness to location. Levy lived several years on Fieldgate Street and would be well aware of both Berner Street and Bucks Row.
3. Eddowes had similar connections to Levy and again there are several. Would JH Levy recognize his cousin and was that the inference he knew something? Lawende as his best friend saw the probable killer but " could not" identify him? Could mean anything. However, what happened next is plausible with regard to Levy. The questions I asked were:
a. Where did the killer disappear between the hour that Eddowes and Apron were found? Middlesex Street is between Mitre Square and Goulston Street and within 5 minutes either way.
. b. Was there a relationship between where the Apron was found at 108 Wentworth Dwellings and Goulston Street and if so did it mean anything? There are actually three :
. 1) Hyman Sampson lived at 60 Goulston Street before he was displaced by the Board of Works and " put" next to Jacob Levy on Middlesex Street. Leading eventually to Levys conviction. The animosity is clearly illustrated in the Old Bailey record.
. 2) The graffiti meaning could have also been a double meaning in relation to its location and intent. Falsely convicted by Sampson ( blamed for nothing) and JtR..much more than nothing.
. 3) Levy' s sister and brother with his entire large family lived in the Wentworth Street dwellings at the time of the murders. Levy had 2 locations between Mitre and Goulston to disappear to.

Is this bias? Or just detective work?? For the record I have friends in Israel and lost 2 friends in the recent War.

So as I open the Kimona and give some insight into thought process it would be nice to see actual events tied to other suspects. Levy is a strong candidate for me as he was also a butcher. The Jewish population is an integral part of this whole equation.

I truly appreciate it being picked apart because it only makes us all better Detectives!

cheers

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Patrick, yes, it's biased. For instance, why in God's name would you be looking for an anglicized Jew? Religion doesn't play into this. You're looking for a misogynistic psychopath who lived in the East End.

Regarding Schwartz and Lawende I think you are correct that they did not state definitively that the suspect was Jewish in appearance. However there seems to be a debate as which witness refused to identify a fellow Jew.

There is no debate except for the one manufactured by the pro-Aaron crowd. Don't fall for it. The historical record is pretty clear that Lawende was the witness always used.

Schwartz and Lawende seem to be the two witnesses when it comes to this identification. If you add witnesses Long and Hutchinson to the analysis you come up with the witness pool leaning heavily to a Jewish suspect. If you add Press reports regarding Joseph Hyam Levy's obstinance and inference he knows something then it's hard to discount his first cousin Jacob Levy as a suspect. Where they All wrong? I guess that's possible.

Long and Hutch obviously have to be taken with a large grain of salt. Hyam Levy said he saw nothing and we have to go with that. Certainly the police never used him as a witness. If he DID know more than he let on, then the police were not aware and could not have used him as a witness later. Possibly Schwartz completely disappears from police reports/memoirs by November 1888. But next to Lawende, he's our best bet, and both Lawende and Schwartz describe gentile suspects. Is it possible the Ripper was Jewish? Absolutely. Is there strong reason (besides Victorian anti-Semitism) to think so? No. Escpecially after the Leather Apron scare convinced everyone they should be looking for a Jewish killer.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Fiver]

Do the events of this night strongly implicate a Jewish person ?

The events of that night do not strongly implicate anyone.

If Schwartz' account is accurate then Broad-shouldered Man was probably a Gentile and probably Stride's killer, but based on behavior, probably not the Ripper.

If the Ripper wrote the Goulston Street graffito, then he was probably an anti-semite. On the other hand, the graffito may have nothing to do with the Ripper.

[Patrick Differ]

Tom i respectively disagree with your view on anglicized v immigrant Jew. I dont believe i used the word Religion. Fishman did some decent research quoting sources of that time with regard to the Political and job impacts created by the immigrants. The immigrants created a Jewish society within an existing Jewish society. This created friction within the society and could impact motive. ( Revenge)
Any bias towards Jews perceived here is likely because there are Jewish suspects?
From strictly a Jewish suspect perspective I rank Levy as #1. Currently looking at Hyam Hyams as he ranks high in the risk analysis posted on Casebook. I think Kosminski, Kaminski, and Cohen are red herrings
Also looking at Bury and Kelly but not far in that process.

[Scott Nelson]

I'd say the Coram Knife needs another look, especially with regards to the wounds on Catherine Eddowes. And of course, the possibility that David Cohen lived next door to where the knife was found. And that it was a cigar shop owned by John Levy which was being used as a brothel. And that Levy grew up at 29 Mitre Street, where his sister still lived in 1888. The sister's house is just out of view of that well-known contemporary photo of the corner of Mitre Square showing the murder location.

See how easy it is to try and connect dots? The question is, do they mean anything?

[Lewis C]

Tom i respectively disagree with your view on anglicized v immigrant Jew. I dont believe i used the word Religion. Fishman did some decent research quoting sources of that time with regard to the Political and job impacts created by the immigrants. The immigrants created a Jewish society within an existing Jewish society. This created friction within the society and could impact motive. ( Revenge)
Any bias towards Jews perceived here is likely because there are Jewish suspects?
From strictly a Jewish suspect perspective I rank Levy as #1. Currently looking at Hyam Hyams as he ranks high in the risk analysis posted on Casebook. I think Kosminski, Kaminski, and Cohen are red herrings
Also looking at Bury and Kelly but not far in that process.

Nathan Kaminski is almost certainly a red herring. The man who initially proposed him later rejected him as a suspect. He lived in the area, his name is similar to Kosminsky, and he had mental health issues, but that's about it for him.

[Tom_Wescott]

Tom i respectively disagree with your view on anglicized v immigrant Jew. I dont believe i used the word Religion. Fishman did some decent research quoting sources of that time with regard to the Political and job impacts created by the immigrants. The immigrants created a Jewish society within an existing Jewish society. This created friction within the society and could impact motive. ( Revenge)
Any bias towards Jews perceived here is likely because there are Jewish suspects?
From strictly a Jewish suspect perspective I rank Levy as #1. Currently looking at Hyam Hyams as he ranks high in the risk analysis posted on Casebook. I think Kosminski, Kaminski, and Cohen are red herrings
Also looking at Bury and Kelly but not far in that process.

I wasn't suggesting an immigrant Jew as the Ripper. I was suggesting the Ripper was most likely gentile, but possibly Jewish. It would follow, I suppose, he was possibly anglicized Jew, but to get there you are taking giant leaps in logic. That's what I was trying to point out. By and large, the Jewish witnesses describe gentile suspects, and the gentile witnesses describe Jewish suspects. Make of that what you will.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

I'd say the Coram Knife needs another look, especially with regards to the wounds on Catherine Eddowes. And of course, the possibility that David Cohen lived next door to where the knife was found. And that it was a cigar shop owned by John Levy which was being used as a brothel. And that Levy grew up at 29 Mitre Street, where his sister still lived in 1888. The sister's house is just out of view of that well-known contemporary photo of the corner of Mitre Square showing the murder location.

See how easy it is to try and connect dots? The question is, do they mean anything?

You know this is going to end up quoted in a book, right.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[The Rookie Detective]

An excellent thread Patrick.

You make some interesting points.


I particularly like your angle of approach here; somewhat reminiscent of how I used to approach any given topic of discussion concerning the ripper case.


I think it's fair to say that coincidences can be found all over the place when it comes to the ripper case.


Over time you'll no doubt find that these coincidences mount up.


Keep going for sure.

[Scott Nelson]

If it is, can I get a complimentary copy?

[Tom_Wescott]

If it is, can I get a complimentary copy?

Would you want one?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott