Location Location Location!

[Dan Norder]

For those who missed Monty's post or who are confused about what "penny dreadfuls" are (especially as a few posters here in the past have purposefully tried to present them as actual historical records so that the contents of some could be used to support their own theories), The Curse Upon Mitre Square is a work of fiction. The murdering monk in it has not been shown to have been an actual historical person. Considering that the *only* evidence for his existence is a book that is undeniably nothing but a rather over the top melodrama in which the ghost of this monk was said to go around killing people, you should assume that it was made up for the purposes of the story.

But, should works of poorly-written gothic literature begin to be accepted as actual evidence in the Ripper case, I would suggest that Varney the Vampire should be considered the leading suspect in the murders. And sadly he would still not be the most outrageous person ever named as a Ripper suspect...

[revpetero]

Celesta,

That would be great. Thanks.

He seems to know his stuff so hopefully he is not basing his findings on the Penny Dreadful.


Peter

[John Bennett]

This scan is from Tom Cullen's 'Autumn of Terror':

[Celesta]

Celesta,

That would be great. Thanks.

He seems to know his stuff so hopefully he is not basing his findings on the Penny Dreadful.


Peter

The subtitle of the book is Three Hundred Years of Mystery and Mayhem. My copy is a proof copy. Let me find the passage about the site and look at its context, whether he thinks it legend or not, and I'll get back to you. I don't think he goes much into JTR, but I haven't gotten that far into it yet.

[Celesta]

Hi Rev,

I tried to paste this, but I can't get it small enough. Page xi Foreward talks about the ring of monasteries, which circled the "sacred territory."

"These included Holy Trinity Aldgate, where the East End's first documented murder took place in the early sixteenth century. Brother Martin, a Holy Trinity monk, stabbed to death a woman praying at the high altar and then killed himself. By what is probably an amazing coincidence Jack the Ripper killed Catherine Eddowes on the same site in 1888."


Take note, I got this off of ebay and didn't know it was a proof. There's no index, which is most annoying. There is a bibliography, but I don't know which of these references he used to document this murder and he could well be repeating a myth or folktale, as has already been pointed out. It's supposed to be a collection of unusual and arcane stories.

It's an interesting book and there is a lot of fact to it. He discusses the docks, the Jewish Ghetto, and different aspects of local history. He wrote The Literary Guide to London and the London Compendium.

[Chava]

I'll tell you what interests me about the location where Eddowes was killed, and that's why the Ripper was in that area in the first place. After he killed Stride and was very close to being caught, he leaves the area, but why does he go West instead of East? He's heading for the City which would have been very quiet in the dead of night wouldn't it? He would have been better off heading East towards Mile End where there would still be a lot of people on the streets. Given his area of operating, a lot of people including myself believe he lived in Whitechapel. So why is he heading up West?

[Monty]

Chava,

Thats assuming he did do for Liz.

Aldgate High st would have been busy. St Botolphs and Leman st was, according to supposed oral tradition, a prostitute pick up point.

There were reasons to be there, that was proven.

Cheers
Monty

[George Hutchinson]

English Heritage published a fantastic but rather costly book on the excavations and remains in Aldgate a few years back. It includes colour repros of the remains of the Priory and 18th century line engravings.

The curious thing about the Priory is that, in fact, the church was NOT aligned to the East and - by coincidence - the altar itself, where the woman is supposed to have been killed by Brother Martin (yawn) actually WAS quite close to the location of the Eddowes murder. It is believed the shape of the square today roughly follows the line of the cloister.

There are indeed remains clearly extant in the building on the corner of Leadenhall Street and Mitre Street. You can easily see them from outside. A couple of bits of wall, one with a sizeable archway in it.

PHILIP

[The Good Michael]

Chava,

Also, if he killed Stride and Eddowes, why not go looking for a third? Perhaps the direction of less people would lead to isolated prostitutes.

Mike

[Krinoid]

need more info and pics please

There are indeed remains clearly extant in the building on the corner of Leadenhall Street and Mitre Street. You can easily see them from outside. A couple of bits of wall, one with a sizeable archway in it.
Anyone have pics of the above
Also I too have read Ed glinert book and it has some interesting ideas on the ripper in east end chronicles

[Scott Nelson]

Old crypts were found along Jewry St. near the corner of Aldgate-High St. They are thought to have been used as far back as Roman times.

[Roy Corduroy]

Thank you Scott. Welcome Krinoid, and yes someone shared those photos on Casebook. Can't locate them at the moment.

It is believed the shape of the square today roughly follows the line of the cloister.

Yes there is a similarity.

[Phil H]

I too believe that caution needs to be exercised in any assumptions about Eddowes' killer's movements that night/morning.

I think it is worth considering two approaches:

a) that he came from the Berners' St area (while in my own contemplations, I tend nowadays not to ascribe Stride to JtR, I have an open mind) hot-ffot from an incomplete "kill". That raises all sorts of questions about his state of mind - almost caught red-handed, frustrated, in a frenzy maybe.

b) that he had nothing to do with Stride's death and came from elsewhere than Berners St or its vicinity.

I would add that in my view the man Lawende saw with Eddowes does not seem to have struck him as agitated, which might favour (b).

There is also the possibility (admittedly not strong) that Eddowes was specifically chosen or trailed - perhaps because she knew something. I certainly think that Eddowes led "Jack" into the Square because as with Nichols and Chapman there was a wooden hoarding to lean against which might have had more "give" than a brick wall. (Nichols had stable gates beside her, Chapman a wooden fence).

Phil

[Krinoid]

Has anyone else on her read Ed Glinert's chapter on the ripper in East end chronicles? I read earlier in this thread there is some dispute over the previous nun killing that happened on that spot, Glinert implies all kinds of masonic links to the Mitre area and previous killing.

[Krinoid]

I found this quote and whatI am wondering is there any where else it is documented that amurder took place than the "penny dreadfull."

These included Holy Trinity Aldgate, where the East End's first documented murder took place in the early sixteenth century. Brother Martin, a Holy Trinity monk, stabbed to death a woman praying at the high altar and then killed himself. By what is probably an amazing coincidence Jack the Ripper killed Catherine Eddowes on the same site in 1888.