Originally posted by Trevor Marriott
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I reckon that 'we have only approximate timings surrounding this murder' could do with being qualified, however.
For example, the idea that PC Harvey walked down Church Passage somewhere between 1.40am and 1.43am is a pretty solid argument, which is corroborated by PC Watkins' watch, knowledge of PC Harvey's beat and where he was standing when he heard the whistle (as per his inquest testimony).
This is a different level of reliability and corroboration to some other instances I can think of, which are probably best left unmentioned in the interests of keeping the thread at Mitre Square.
And, I do not think 1.40am or 1.43am is central to whether or not Joseph and associates saw Catherine.
Originally posted by Trevor Marriott
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Some would look at other information left to us.
PC Harvey is due back 'round at that passage; PC Watkins isn't going to be too long at Mitre Street.
In the event Joseph and associates saw the WM, then the reasonable conclusion is that neither he nor Catherine knew the police beats nor was either of them taking notice of when the police were passing by. 'Quite possible. I certainly wouldn't rule that out at all.
As I said previously, in the event you believe that Catherine and WM moved into the square immediately after Joseph passed, then it's not much of a stretch; it's when you put the whole scenario together that it becomes improbable, all of the little bits and pieces of stretches that has to be undertaken to make it work.
Again, the two Josephs' estimates of when they were at Church Passage aren't bad at all. They pretty much agreed with one another (corroboration), Joseph Lawende had two sources of time and the time from 'rising to leave' and walking past Church Passage wasn't long at all, not much scope to lose a lot of minutes. The estimates aren't perfect but there's enough there to be credible and there is no evidence to corroborate the idea that they were meaningfully wrong in their estimates.
Either way, I don't think the points you make are the pivotal pieces of information. I think the pivotal piece is that when PC Harvey walked down Church Passage, the likelihood is that the WM would have left the square. This means that in order for Joseph to have passed by Catherine, then the time he was at Church Passage has to be pulled forward. It's quite possible they had their times out by say three or four minutes, but we have no evidence for that: we're making it up in order to fit a theory, and we're brazenly pulling the times one way when it could just as easily have been the inconvenient other way, supported only by a sweeping statement to the effect 'the times are estimates' while riding roughshod over the principle of corroboration.
Joseph said he was sure it was 1.30am when they got up to leave, he was a businessman, he would have had meetings; he would have known whether or not he could rely on time, including his watch and the club clock.
The evidence we have suggests they were at Church Passage at more or less 1.35am. That outweighs the broad sweep 'the times are estimates', in my opinion.
Originally posted by Trevor Marriott
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I believe it was a Jewish club and while there are sources for Jewish involvement in prostitution in the East End at that time, it tended to be more controlled brothels and it seems Jewish prostitutes serving Jewish clients. This is what historical sources suggest.
Would Jewish men that way inclined, gravitate towards gentile street workers? It's not a given, and the club might not have been the source of clients that you assume.
Any historical sources you have to the contrary would be useful.
On the other hand, a well known area for prostitutes was just off Aldgate High Street, a very short walk to Mitre Street. Given that Catherine was known to City policemen, and she was a prostitute, it's not a stretch to suggest Catherine had been there before and would have known that the most useful way in and out of that square: the shortest way to the darkest spot, the way that avoided passing any activity in the square, the way that didn't involve passing lamps in the square.
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