Did Lawende see Kate Eddowes?

[Fleetwood Mac]

The point I keep making regarding timings is that we have only approximate timings surrounding this murder.

It's a point that is widely agreed upon.

I reckon that 'we have only approximate timings surrounding this murder' could do with being qualified, however.

For example, the idea that PC Harvey walked down Church Passage somewhere between 1.40am and 1.43am is a pretty solid argument, which is corroborated by PC Watkins' watch, knowledge of PC Harvey's beat and where he was standing when he heard the whistle (as per his inquest testimony).

This is a different level of reliability and corroboration to some other instances I can think of, which are probably best left unmentioned in the interests of keeping the thread at Mitre Square.

And, I do not think 1.40am or 1.43am is central to whether or not Joseph and associates saw Catherine.

But what we don't know is at what point and at what time the couple seen standing talking at the entrance.......moved from where they stood and made their way into the square. The longer they stood talking the less time the killer would have had to do all that he is alleged to have done.

I doubt anyone would disagree with this either.

Some would look at other information left to us.

PC Harvey is due back 'round at that passage; PC Watkins isn't going to be too long at Mitre Street.

In the event Joseph and associates saw the WM, then the reasonable conclusion is that neither he nor Catherine knew the police beats nor was either of them taking notice of when the police were passing by. 'Quite possible. I certainly wouldn't rule that out at all.

As I said previously, in the event you believe that Catherine and WM moved into the square immediately after Joseph passed, then it's not much of a stretch; it's when you put the whole scenario together that it becomes improbable, all of the little bits and pieces of stretches that has to be undertaken to make it work.

Again, the two Josephs' estimates of when they were at Church Passage aren't bad at all. They pretty much agreed with one another (corroboration), Joseph Lawende had two sources of time and the time from 'rising to leave' and walking past Church Passage wasn't long at all, not much scope to lose a lot of minutes. The estimates aren't perfect but there's enough there to be credible and there is no evidence to corroborate the idea that they were meaningfully wrong in their estimates.

Either way, I don't think the points you make are the pivotal pieces of information. I think the pivotal piece is that when PC Harvey walked down Church Passage, the likelihood is that the WM would have left the square. This means that in order for Joseph to have passed by Catherine, then the time he was at Church Passage has to be pulled forward. It's quite possible they had their times out by say three or four minutes, but we have no evidence for that: we're making it up in order to fit a theory, and we're brazenly pulling the times one way when it could just as easily have been the inconvenient other way, supported only by a sweeping statement to the effect 'the times are estimates' while riding roughshod over the principle of corroboration.

Joseph said he was sure it was 1.30am when they got up to leave, he was a businessman, he would have had meetings; he would have known whether or not he could rely on time, including his watch and the club clock.

The evidence we have suggests they were at Church Passage at more or less 1.35am. That outweighs the broad sweep 'the times are estimates', in my opinion.

But the club premises where Lawende came from was a more likely place for a prostitute to pick someone up from than Mitre Sreet where that street was off the beaten track

Would the club members have been likely clients?

I believe it was a Jewish club and while there are sources for Jewish involvement in prostitution in the East End at that time, it tended to be more controlled brothels and it seems Jewish prostitutes serving Jewish clients. This is what historical sources suggest.

Would Jewish men that way inclined, gravitate towards gentile street workers? It's not a given, and the club might not have been the source of clients that you assume.

Any historical sources you have to the contrary would be useful.

On the other hand, a well known area for prostitutes was just off Aldgate High Street, a very short walk to Mitre Street. Given that Catherine was known to City policemen, and she was a prostitute, it's not a stretch to suggest Catherine had been there before and would have known that the most useful way in and out of that square: the shortest way to the darkest spot, the way that avoided passing any activity in the square, the way that didn't involve passing lamps in the square.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

I was suggesting that Catherine and the WM entered Mitre Square, via Mitre Street, when PC Watkins left the square, approximately 1.32am ...

Watkins said that he checked Mitre Street thoroughly before entering the square.

Maybe he did the same upon leaving it, but if he did so, he did not encounter any couples making their way to Mitre Square.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Watkins said that he checked Mitre Street thoroughly before entering the square.

Maybe he did the same upon leaving it, but if he did so, he did not encounter any couples making their way to Mitre Square.

There was an article I think, or maybe a post, by an ex-policeman who put some effort into detailing PC Watkins' beat and that which was required of him.

It specifically mentioned that PC Watkins would have briefly looked up and down Mitre Street before entering Mitre Square, but it doesn't mention doing the same after going 'round the square and being back in Mitre Street. I have no idea whether or not that omission was because after leaving the square, it would not have been PC Watkins' duty to look up and down the street or because it was an oversight.

Assuming he was expected to look up and down the street after leaving Mitre Square, it would have been a brief look given he was on a 12/14 minute beat.

And, the distance from exiting Mitre Square, up Mitre Street and turning into King Street, wasn't far at all; say 10/15 properties in between.

All in all, while tight, I think there is as much time there as the scenario that involves Joseph seeing Catherine; and probably a bit more when you factor in that entering and exiting via Mitre Street is the shortest route.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

I believe it was a Jewish club and while there are sources for Jewish involvement in prostitution in the East End at that time, it tended to be more controlled brothels and it seems Jewish prostitutes serving Jewish clients. This is what historical sources suggest.

Would Jewish men that way inclined, gravitate towards gentile street workers? It's not a given, and the club might not have been the source of clients that you assume.

A few points.

First, the club was certified kosher; I have never heard of a kosher brothel.

Secondly, Levy made a disapproving remark about prostitution, which suggests that he was not a prospective customer of Eddowes.

Thirdly, Eddowes' customer was described as looking rough.
Does Lawende seem like a suitable alternative?

Fourthly, if Eddowes thought the club was a good place to find clients, why was she at Church Passage with a fair, rough sailor?

[jmenges]

There was an article I think, or maybe a post, by an ex-policeman who put some effort into detailing PC Watkins' beat and that which was required of him.

You might be thinking of Neil Bell & Rob Clack’s article ‘City Beat: City PC 881 Edward Watkins’ published in Ripperologist Magazine 105 (August 2009)

JM

[Sunny Delight]

It's a point that is widely agreed upon.

I reckon that 'we have only approximate timings surrounding this murder' could do with being qualified, however.

For example, the idea that PC Harvey walked down Church Passage somewhere between 1.40am and 1.43am is a pretty solid argument, which is corroborated by PC Watkins' watch, knowledge of PC Harvey's beat and where he was standing when he heard the whistle (as per his inquest testimony).

This is a different level of reliability and corroboration to some other instances I can think of, which are probably best left unmentioned in the interests of keeping the thread at Mitre Square.

And, I do not think 1.40am or 1.43am is central to whether or not Joseph and associates saw Catherine.



I doubt anyone would disagree with this either.

Some would look at other information left to us.

PC Harvey is due back 'round at that passage; PC Watkins isn't going to be too long at Mitre Street.

In the event Joseph and associates saw the WM, then the reasonable conclusion is that neither he nor Catherine knew the police beats nor was either of them taking notice of when the police were passing by. 'Quite possible. I certainly wouldn't rule that out at all.

As I said previously, in the event you believe that Catherine and WM moved into the square immediately after Joseph passed, then it's not much of a stretch; it's when you put the whole scenario together that it becomes improbable, all of the little bits and pieces of stretches that has to be undertaken to make it work.

Again, the two Josephs' estimates of when they were at Church Passage aren't bad at all. They pretty much agreed with one another (corroboration), Joseph Lawende had two sources of time and the time from 'rising to leave' and walking past Church Passage wasn't long at all, not much scope to lose a lot of minutes. The estimates aren't perfect but there's enough there to be credible and there is no evidence to corroborate the idea that they were meaningfully wrong in their estimates.

Either way, I don't think the points you make are the pivotal pieces of information. I think the pivotal piece is that when PC Harvey walked down Church Passage, the likelihood is that the WM would have left the square. This means that in order for Joseph to have passed by Catherine, then the time he was at Church Passage has to be pulled forward. It's quite possible they had their times out by say three or four minutes, but we have no evidence for that: we're making it up in order to fit a theory, and we're brazenly pulling the times one way when it could just as easily have been the inconvenient other way, supported only by a sweeping statement to the effect 'the times are estimates' while riding roughshod over the principle of corroboration.

Joseph said he was sure it was 1.30am when they got up to leave, he was a businessman, he would have had meetings; he would have known whether or not he could rely on time, including his watch and the club clock.

The evidence we have suggests they were at Church Passage at more or less 1.35am. That outweighs the broad sweep 'the times are estimates', in my opinion.



Would the club members have been likely clients?

I believe it was a Jewish club and while there are sources for Jewish involvement in prostitution in the East End at that time, it tended to be more controlled brothels and it seems Jewish prostitutes serving Jewish clients. This is what historical sources suggest.

Would Jewish men that way inclined, gravitate towards gentile street workers? It's not a given, and the club might not have been the source of clients that you assume.

Any historical sources you have to the contrary would be useful.

On the other hand, a well known area for prostitutes was just off Aldgate High Street, a very short walk to Mitre Street. Given that Catherine was known to City policemen, and she was a prostitute, it's not a stretch to suggest Catherine had been there before and would have known that the most useful way in and out of that square: the shortest way to the darkest spot, the way that avoided passing any activity in the square, the way that didn't involve passing lamps in the square.

All times are estimates as they were not using digital devices. In a scenario like Catherine Eddowes murder all that is needed is 10-15 seconds of difference for the murderer to escape. If it was 1:29am when Lawende and co went to leave then that is one minute and in the grand scheme of things that is a lifetime when one considers the little time the killer needed. Taking things at their lowest estimates- that is to say we take Joseph Levy's three minutes estimate on leaving the club, give around 4 minutes for Dr Sequiera and have PC Harvey entering Church Passage at 1:41am then there is enough time to have committed the deed and got away. In fact in that scenario the killer had ample time.

Even taking Lawende's timing and Dr Bonds say 6 minutes to kill and mutiliate Eddowes the killer could have fled maybe 10-15 seconds before PC Harvey entered Church Passage. I mean all it takes is the killer to have fled at say 1:41 and 15 seconds and PC Harvey to enter Church Passage at 1:41 and 30 seconds and it still works.

How the killer was not caught on the night of the Double Event is incredible, almost inexplicable. I think 50 years after the event Walter Dew still couldn't believe it.

[Fleetwood Mac]

You might be thinking of Neil Bell & Rob Clack’s article ‘City Beat: City PC 881 Edward Watkins’ published in Ripperologist Magazine 105 (August 2009)

JM

That's the one. Valuable for those who don't put the hard work in to do the research (like myself).

Very informative also. I didn't expect to read the level of diligence that the article describes. I expected them to be grumbling down the street thinking: "whose idea was this, when's it home time: cup of tea beside the fire". 'Seems that says a lot about me, and my projection underestimated the bobby on the beat.

[Fleetwood Mac]

A few points.

First, the club was certified kosher; I have never heard of a kosher brothel.

Secondly, Levy made a disapproving remark about prostitution, which suggests that he was not a prospective customer of Eddowes.

Thirdly, Eddowes' customer was described as looking rough.
Does Lawende seem like a suitable alternative?

Fourthly, if Eddowes thought the club was a good place to find clients, why was she at Church Passage with a fair, rough sailor?

I agree in that for Catherine, Aldgate High Street would have been a far better bet than the Imperial Club and its denizens.

[Elamarna]

That's the one. Valuable for those who don't put the hard work in to do the research (like myself).

Very informative also. I didn't expect to read the level of diligence that the article describes. I expected them to be grumbling down the street thinking: "whose idea was this, when's it home time: cup of tea beside the fire". 'Seems that says a lot about me, and my projection underestimated the bobby on the beat.

There is also the two part article
City Beat: Harvey and Watkins Part - By GAVIN BROMLEY from Ripperologist #74 Dec 2006, #75 Jan 2007.


Again outstanding work.

Steve

[Fleetwood Mac]

How the killer was not caught on the night of the Double Event is incredible, almost inexplicable. I think 50 years after the event Walter Dew still couldn't believe it.

I think you said it earlier in your post in that seconds may have made the difference. Whichever way we believe he went in and out, there's a decent chance he was lucky enough to turn a corner at a time when a policeman had his back to him or he was able to spot the policeman before he was spotted and take cover, and/or he's just passed over a junction as a policeman hasn't long gone down it.

But, there are other factors outside of the times which support a particular conclusion. So, putting it all together, and I'm sure this has been suggested many a time before; this seems the scenario with fewest problems, at least to me anyway:

1) Catherine was a prostitute. Aldgate High Street/St Botolph's Church was a known area for prostitutes, a short walk from Mitre Square. That suggests to me the most likely place for soliciting.

2) Catherine was known to the City Police, suggesting she'd been that way before, as does the fact she is was in Mitre Square with a man in the darkest part of the square.

3) Catherine knew the square (probably). When they walked down Aldgate, they passed the turn off to Duke Street and entered via Mitre Street. The shortest journey to the darkest part of the square, passing unoccupied buildings devoid of activity and lamps. The principle of least effort based upon that which Catherine knew.

4) Morris ran for help approx. 1.46/1.47am. PC Watkins entered the square approx. 1.43/1.44am. When PC Harvey heard Morris' whistle, he was in Aldgate returning to Duke Street, not too far off the spot where he looked at the post office clock last time 'round and it said 1.28am. Meaning PC Harvey was running behind PC Watkins by about three minutes in terms of when PC Watkins entered the square and when PC Harvey was at the Mitre Street junction, which in turn means that when PC Watkins entered the square at 1.30am that post office clock wasn't too far out at all. The more important point being: there was time for the WM and Catherine to come down from Aldgate and miss PC Harvey who by that time was in Duke Street or Church Passage or even farther on.

5) PC Watkins left Mitre Square at approx. 1.32am and took the short walk up Mitre Street before turning into King Street. Catherine and the WM had already agreed in Aldgate where they were going and what for, and so they simply headed for the Mitre Street entrance as Watkins turned the corner: no idle standing around and conversation. Given it was the shortest route to that part of the square, they were in the corner by 1.33/1.34am.

6) PC Harvey walked down Church Passage with his lantern and that made it time to leave. He exited via Mitre Street and went back down Aldgate the way he came, before PC Harvey was back on Duke Street. Wherever PC Watkins was at that time, possibly Creechurch Lane, he didn't have a view into Mitre Street. By the time PC Watkins had a view up Aldgate at say 1.42am, the WM had a couple of minutes on him. 'Possibly turned down a side street or possibly just a figure in the distance among a few.

'All very tight but which scenario isn't? You could pick holes in it but I'd say it's the best of the options.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

And what happened to the woman wearing a bonnet in Church Passage, with her hand on a rough sailor's chest?

If you had to bet on what she did next, it would be to go with him down Church Passage.

Why else was she standing at the entrance to it?

And if the man had no intention of going with her, why was he standing there with her hand on his chest?

[Fleetwood Mac]

And what happened to the woman wearing a bonnet in Church Passage, with her hand on a rough sailor's chest?

If you had to bet on what she did next, it would be to go with him down Church Passage.

Why else was she standing at the entrance to it?

And if the man had no intention of going with her, why was he standing there with her hand on his chest?

Why would we assume that a couple standing in the street means a street worker and a client?

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Why would we assume that a couple standing in the street means a street worker and a client?

I am not assuming it.

It is suggested by the evidence.

Levy thought she was a prostitute.

Lawende said she had her hand on the man's chest.

Someone suggested they were a boyfriend and girlfriend.

Why would a woman wearing a bonnet be standing at 1.35 a.m. at the beginning of Church Passage, which just happens to lead to Mitre Square, with her hand on her boyfriend's chest, yet he is not even touching her?

[Trevor Marriott]

All times are estimates as they were not using digital devices. In a scenario like Catherine Eddowes murder all that is needed is 10-15 seconds of difference for the murderer to escape. If it was 1:29am when Lawende and co went to leave then that is one minute and in the grand scheme of things that is a lifetime when one considers the little time the killer needed. Taking things at their lowest estimates- that is to say we take Joseph Levy's three minutes estimate on leaving the club, give around 4 minutes for Dr Sequiera and have PC Harvey entering Church Passage at 1:41am then there is enough time to have committed the deed and got away. In fact in that scenario the killer had ample time.

Even taking Lawende's timing and Dr Bonds say 6 minutes to kill and mutiliate Eddowes the killer could have fled maybe 10-15 seconds before PC Harvey entered Church Passage. I mean all it takes is the killer to have fled at say 1:41 and 15 seconds and PC Harvey to enter Church Passage at 1:41 and 30 seconds and it still works.

How the killer was not caught on the night of the Double Event is incredible, almost inexplicable. I think 50 years after the event Walter Dew still couldn't believe it.

But there is no evidence to show what time the couple entered the square they could have stood talking after Lawenede and co saw them. So clearly the killer had time to murder and mutilate but did he have time to remove the organs? The later they entered the square the less time the killer had to do all that he is alleged to have done.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Fleetwood Mac]

I am not assuming it.

It is suggested by the evidence.

Levy thought she was a prostitute.

Lawende said she had her hand on the man's chest.

Someone suggested they were a boyfriend and girlfriend.

Why would a woman wearing a bonnet be standing at 1.35 a.m. at the beginning of Church Passage, which just happens to lead to Mitre Square, with her hand on her boyfriend's chest, yet he is not even touching her?

Aye, but when Joseph L gave his reason for his opinion it was: "at so late an hour". That's not much of a reason. They could have been standing there for a multitude of reasons including: where they'd been, what they'd been doing, where they going to.

I'm not sure what the importance of a bonnet is. Working class women wore bonnets, for practical reasons as much as anything.

'Same with a hand on the chest. Feel free to explain how and why that translates into client and street worker.