Did Lawende see Kate Eddowes?

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

I am sorry to have to disagree with your second paragraph, Sunny, because I agree with your first paragraph and, if Levy's estimate was correct then the murderer was less pressed for time than in your hypothetical schedule.

I do not agree that Lawende's description matches Israel Schwartz's description of the attacker he saw very well.

Schwartz's suspect had dark hair and a brown moustache, whereas Lawende's had a fair moustache.

Schwartz's suspect was stout and broad-shouldered, whereas Lawende's was of medium build.

Schwartz's suspect was drunk, loud, and aggressive, whereas Lawende's was sober, quiet, and passive.

Schwartz's suspect was wearing a black cap, whereas Lawende's wore a grey one.

[Fleetwood Mac]

One thing we can be sure of his on the night of the double event the Ripper was extremely lucky.

Very much so.

I don't go along with the 'knowing the police beats to escape' line of thinking.

In the event he knew the police beats then going into that square was a huge risk given the police beats, and this is someone who is going to have his head put in a noose.

You could argue that they changed the police beats for the very reason that criminals took notice of them, but still, that's putting yourself in a position knowing you'll hang unless you can get in and out of there like clockwork, which is a bit of an operation. And then, how could he keep track of the time in the dark with his most likely non existent watch. How did he know he was 4 minutes in or 6 minutes or sufficient minutes in to know he needed to leave. I'm not well versed in this, but I'd imagine that you'd have a job on your hands to keep track of time when you're carving up people and you don't have a watch or a clock to rely on. Assuming the two Josephs could lose a minute or two in between getting up to leave and actually leaving, then the WM had a job on his hands to keep the time together when he's busy relieving poor Catherine of a kidney in the dark and he doesn't have a clock and more than likely doesn't have a watch.

I'd go with he didn't have a clue on the police beats and relied on approaching footsteps to leave and the dark to give him cover.

Then again, you could argue it was a combination of the two.

The luck would seem to be that when he heard approaching footsteps or a lantern or something else that disturbed him, it caused him to leave at a time when no policeman was nearby.

That has led some people to speculate that somebody missed a beat, probably Watkins, or someone encountered him and bottled it. I have a bit of sympathy with that line of thinking because it all seems too good, or more to the point bad, to be true.

But, I reckon human beings have an innate desire to control and understand. We don't like things that are beyond our comprehension. When we don't understand something we err on the side of some conspiracy has taken place. That way we can say the only reason we don't understand it is because some people conspired to prevent our understanding.

I'd say it's just the same old relying on being able to hear someone approaching and using the dark as cover. That's the way it always is in some form or other. When did the police ever bottle it in the face of a murderer, or a policeman missed a beat, or murderers watched police times, wrote them down and diligently worked to them; or some police gang was sat in a warehouse having a cup of tea when they should have been working outside, while a murder takes place a few yards away in the corner, or the murder didn't actually happen in that part of the square and the body was dragged there, when all of the medical evidence suggests otherwise.

The simplest solution: somebody disturbed him and it just happened to be at a time that was in his favour, i.e. there was no approaching policeman when he left the square.

[Wickerman]

I am sorry to have to disagree with your second paragraph, Sunny, because I agree with your first paragraph and, if Levy's estimate was correct then the murderer was less pressed for time than in your hypothetical schedule.

I do not agree that Lawende's description matches Israel Schwartz's description of the attacker he saw very well.

Schwartz's suspect had dark hair and a brown moustache, whereas Lawende's had a fair moustache.

Schwartz's suspect was stout and broad-shouldered, whereas Lawende's was of medium build.

Schwartz's suspect was drunk, loud, and aggressive, whereas Lawende's was sober, quiet, and passive.

Schwartz's suspect was wearing a black cap, whereas Lawende's wore a grey one.

Yes, and lets not forget the BS-man in Berner St. was staggering around, as if drunk. Yet theorists have him sobering up enough to stagger across to Mitre Square and make a surgical extraction that would put a skilled surgeon to shame.
Really?

[Sunny Delight]

I am sorry to have to disagree with your second paragraph, Sunny, because I agree with your first paragraph and, if Levy's estimate was correct then the murderer was less pressed for time than in your hypothetical schedule.

I do not agree that Lawende's description matches Israel Schwartz's description of the attacker he saw very well.

Schwartz's suspect had dark hair and a brown moustache, whereas Lawende's had a fair moustache.

Schwartz's suspect was stout and broad-shouldered, whereas Lawende's was of medium build.

Schwartz's suspect was drunk, loud, and aggressive, whereas Lawende's was sober, quiet, and passive.

Schwartz's suspect was wearing a black cap, whereas Lawende's wore a grey one.

Considering both sightings were from different ranges with different lighting conditions it is inevitable there will be differences. You have selected differences which are not in my opinion significant. They are quite pedantic.

- The significance is that the man had a moustsche. Colour differences are not that significant. If one had a moustache and other didn't then that would be hard to explain away.

- The colour of the cap again is irrelevant. Far more significant is the fact that both men wore a peaked cap. The style is the significant factor. Again if one wore a peaked cap and the other wore a wideawake then again very hard to explain away.

- Again aspects like build is very subjective. It also depends on the angle you view someone. I don't see a medium or well built description as really significant. If one was thin and the other well built well again such a disparity would be hard to explain.

- Granted the disposition was different. Maybe that could be put down to the fact the victims presented different personas. Stride did not seem to be interested in conversing. Eddowes has her hand on the man's chest- presumably in a flirtatious manner.

The similarities are much more important in my opinion.

Both men were aged around 30, between 5ft 5in and 5ft 7in, both were fairly in completion, both had a moustache, both wore a peaked cap, both wore a dark jacket (again lighting issues could be at play- Lawende described a salt and pepper colour jacket). For two pretty fleeting views of someone these descriptions are remarkably similar.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Yes, and lets not forget the BS-man in Berner St. was staggering around, as if drunk. Yet theorists have him sobering up enough to stagger across to Mitre Square and make a surgical extraction that would put a skilled surgeon to shame.
Really?

There is also the question of how he would have changed his dark jacket into a pepper and salt jacket, and where he would have acquired a reddish neckerchief after one in the morning.

[Sunny Delight]

Yes, and lets not forget the BS-man in Berner St. was staggering around, as if drunk. Yet theorists have him sobering up enough to stagger across to Mitre Square and make a surgical extraction that would put a skilled surgeon to shame.
Really?

Can you provide the evidence that BS man was 'staggering around drunk'.? Schwartz never used that term.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

I take your points about similarities between the two suspects, Sunny, but the colours are all wrong!

Schwartz's suspect has a dark jacket, dark cap and dark hair.

Lawende's suspect has a pepper and salt jacket, grey cap and fair hair.

Schwartz's suspect is not only stout and broad shouldered but has a full face.

Lawende's is of medium build and is wearing a reddish neckerchief, neckerchiefs being commonly worn by sailors, and he is described as having the appearance of a rough sailor.

There is not much to suggest that Schwartz's suspect had such an appearance.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Can you provide the evidence that BS man was 'staggering around drunk'.? Schwartz never used that term.

According to the newspaper report, Schwartz said that the suspect was

walking as if partially intoxicated


According to the Collins English Dictionary:

If you stagger, you walk very unsteadily, for example because you are ill or drunk.

[Wickerman]

Can you provide the evidence that BS man was 'staggering around drunk'.? Schwartz never used that term.

My bad, of course it was "... a man walking as if partially intoxicated..."

Can't imagine what I was thinking....

[Sunny Delight]

My bad, of course it was "... a man walking as if partially intoxicated..."

Can't imagine what I was thinking....

Hmm how does one define partially intoxicated? My view is 'staggering around' is hyperbolic language designed to illicit the view that BS man was basically hammered. I don't imagine partially intoxicated gives such an impression.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Hmm how does one define partially intoxicated? My view is 'staggering around' is hyperbolic language designed to illicit the view that BS man was basically hammered. I don't imagine partially intoxicated gives such an impression.

If he had been completely intoxicated, he would hardly have been able to stand.

As he was only partially intoxicated, he was staggering about, but still on his feet.

Lawende did not report that his suspect was swaying at all.

[Wickerman]

According to the newspaper report, Schwartz said that the suspect was

walking as if partially intoxicated

Sorry, I missed your reply.

[Wickerman]

Hmm how does one define partially intoxicated? My view is 'staggering around' is hyperbolic language designed to illicit the view that BS man was basically hammered. I don't imagine partially intoxicated gives such an impression.

Given that Schwartz does not say he was in hearing distance, sufficient to hear slurred speech - for example.
How else would someone get the impression the person walking ahead of them was "partially intoxicated", if not by the way they are walking?

[Scott Nelson]

Hi Scott,

I was thinking that encountering the man in the Orange Market square after 7 minutes doesn't leave much time to finish the beat, but Langdon states "Presently - exactly seven minutes after he had been in the square previously - the policeman entered it again, and started to walk round it. Suddenly he came upon a human form huddled up in a corner. It was a woman lying dead", so this adds up to the 14 minute beat. It also fits quite well with the watchboy story.

There is a similarity with the Stephen White story, in that White said that he "stood aside to let the man pass", and it fits with "at the end of the cul-de-sac, huddled against the wall, there was the body of a woman" and being "just behind the Whitechapel Road". However, "a certain alley just behind the Whitechapel Road" also fits Castle Alley and McKenzie, although that was not a cul-de-sac. White's description of the man puts me in mind of Francis Thompson. In the end, neither locations fit the description of "could only be entered from where we had two men posted in hiding".

Cheers, George

Hi George,

The description of the 7 minutes isn't written very clearly in the Langdon piece, but another account commenting on the story (don't have it on hand) clarified that a calculation was done from the spot of the sighting to demonstrate another 7 minutes elapsed to make the rest of the round back into Mitre Square, which does seem a bit too fast.

These glimpses of the Mitre Square murder may have come from city police reports that were destroyed and later commentators were going from memory, so while some parts of the story seem to fit, others do not. As to why Watkins didn't report this encounter (if it happened) at the inquest, I don't know.

[Fleetwood Mac]

For two pretty fleeting views of someone these descriptions are remarkably similar.

I would tend to agree that the descriptions do not warrant ruling out that they were the same man.

I'd expect Schwartz to be closer to the mark given this was an incident that demanded his attention, i.e. it was a perceived threat to him.

Outside of that, witness descriptions, when they have no reason to take a great deal of notice, should be taken with a degree of healthy scepticism.

We have an example to go off here: the two Josephs gave what I would call a significant height discrepancy and they saw the same man. 'Nothing suspicious in that, simply the nature of witnesses who walk by someone and are asked to recollect it at a later point.