From Mitre Square to Goulston Street - Some thoughts.

[Wickerman]

To an extent, aye.

Unfamiliarity would lend towards the way he came.

Familiarity would have given him a choice/evaluation to make.

In both scenarios, I reckon up Aldgate High Street is the most likely scenario but that assumes he left via Mitre Street.

Something else may have played a part - whether Eddowes bumped into the killer, or the killer came across Eddowes.
Was she taking a short cut through St. James Place or Mitre Square and he was there, perhaps also passing through.
Or, did they meet up out on a main street, and she suggested "I know a quiet place", and led him the Mitre Sq.?

If we assume the killer fled east from Mitre Sq. when passing G.S. - heading home?, then why was he heading west from Berner Street to end up at Mitre Sq., in the first place?

[Fleetwood Mac]

It all depends on how familiar the killer was with that area.

To an extent, aye.

Unfamiliarity would lend towards the way he came.

Familiarity would have given him a choice/evaluation to make.

In both scenarios, I reckon up Aldgate High Street is the most likely scenario but that assumes he left via Mitre Street.

[Wickerman]

I imagine that you are going by the report in the Telegraph of the following exchange between Watkins and the coroner:

[Coroner] At half-past one did anything excite your attention? - No.

[Coroner] Did you see anyone about? - No.


I refer you to my #184 in Did Lawende see Kate Eddowes?


"And when did you pass through the square again?" asked the reporter.

"At about a quarter before two."

"Had you met any person on your rounds?"

"Not a soul."

(The Star, 1 October 1888)

I know it is sometimes preferable to take such statements at face value, but I believe Watkins passed through St. James Place, and we know Blenkingsop was on duty as nightwatchman in the Place. So, once again, we have to make allowances for another "saw no-one" claim. It's not as accurate as we might like to believe.

[Wickerman]

I agree with the conclusion, Jon.

'Not sure about the idea that PC Harvey would have forgotten seeing a man cross the street moments before a body was discovered, however, particularly when you consider that he was paid to take notice of that which was going on around him.

I wouldn't say 'forgotten' either, but he didn't think it was relevant if he did see anyone. Though there's little to be had by picking that scenario apart when we can't say for sure where either party was (killer or Harvey) at that moment in time. They may have been out of sight of each other.

On the other hand, when you look at PC Watkins' testimony, I don't think he was saying that he saw nobody on his beat. I think he was saying that he saw nothing unusual, and when he stated he didn't see anybody about, I reckon that related specifically to when he checked the square at 1.30am.

So, aye, both PC Harvey and PC Watkin could well have passed people or seen people ahead of them. Were it the case, as you suggest, then that would tell us that the WM didn't make his escape by running 'round drawing attention to himself, which is the way I always conceived of it.[/quote]

In many cases "not seeing anyone" only means "not seeing anyone acting or looking suspicious".

Maybe you're right in that it's not the mystery we assume. Maybe he walked away looking outwardly calm, did pass police officers, but so did others; and he was just another face among a few, 'no reason to take a great deal of notice.

That is precisely my take.

Still, in the event he came down from Aldgate High Street and entered the square via Mitre Street, then I see no good reason for him not to go back that way; he may even have passed DC Halse and associates when they were around St Botolph's Church.

I don't think we know how DC Halse got to Middlesex Street, but given he came down from Aldgate High Street way, and entered from Mitre Street (I think that's a fair assumption given that Morris ran in the direction of Aldgate from Mitre Street); it's reasonable to assume he went back that way and turned down Middlesex Street. I'd say it looks the simplest route from Mitre Street and they may have seen it that way also.

I reckon it depends on which exit the WM left from: Mitre Street makes it more likely he went back up Aldgate High Street and Duke Street means Stoney Lane becomes a decent option.

It all depends on how familiar the killer was with that area.

[Fleetwood Mac]

I agree, and I thought I made it clear that I am not disagreeing with you about that.

My point is that the answer Watkins gave the reporter means that he did not see anyone between that visit to the square at 1.30 and his discovery of the body at 1.44 a.m.

Which newspaper? The Star?

This is the same reporter, in the same newspaper, in the same supposed interview/conversation; that claimed Watkins said this:

I never saw such a sight. I went at once to Dr. Sequeira.

[Wickerman]

A neckerchief is usually tied around the neck, this piece of cloth was not tied as a neckerchief would be.

These are the accounts I have been looking for, they tell us the apron was around the neck, or at least on the body.

She wore a pair of men's laced-boots; and a piece of old white coarse apron and a piece of riband were tied loosely around the neck.
Times, 1 Oct. 1888.

....large white handkerchief round neck. She wore a pair of men's old lace-up boots, and a piece of coarse white apron.
Daily Telegraph, 1 Oct. 1888.

It's the last item on her list of possessions.
Trevor & I had this same discussion a couple of years ago. The above report naturally was the clincher, and predictably Trevor dismissed it as untrustworthy newspaper tattle.

The last item on Collard's list of possessions reads:
"1 Piece of old white apron".
The confusion comes from the question whether the G.S. piece was added to the bottom of her list of possessions, by rights, it shouldn't have been.
All items removed from her body must be kept separate from evidence found elsewhere. It isn't for the police locating evidence at or near the crime scene to assume what is or is not her possession.
If that last item had been removed from the body we might expect it to have been listed either before or after the red gauze (12th item).

Had Phillips arrived after the body was stripped, then the piece of apron that came off the body was in the pile of clothes, or spread out on a table. It would be removed from the pile and pieced together with the G.S. piece brought by Phillips to determine the match.
After which, the 'body' piece is dropped back at the end of the pile. It would then be recorded last.

The actual copy of the List of Possessions cannot be the original. The inspector had his notebook for any notes made at the crime scene or when gathering evidence. The present list is not written on pocketbook size paper.
The copy we find in the court records must be a clean copy made for the purpose of presenting in court - rewritten, neat & clean, devoid of any blood stains & strike-outs.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

I agree, and I thought I made it clear that I am not disagreeing with you about that.

My point is that the answer Watkins gave the reporter means that he did not see anyone between that visit to the square at 1.30 and his discovery of the body at 1.44 a.m.

[Fleetwood Mac]

I imagine that you are going by the report in the Telegraph of the following exchange between Watkins and the coroner:

Did you see anyone about? - No.

Place it in its context:

Or any person? - No. I passed through Mitre-square at 1.30 on the Sunday morning. I had my lantern alight and on - fixed to my belt. According to my usual practice, I looked at the different passages and corners.
At half-past one did anything excite your attention? - No.
Did you see anyone about? - No.
Could any people have been about that portion of the square without your seeing them? - No. I next came into Mitre-square at 1.44.

It looks very much that when PC Watkins said he didn't see anyone about, he was talking of half one in the morning when he entered the square, i.e. he didn't see anybody in the square at that time.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

On the other hand, when you look at PC Watkins' testimony, I don't think he was saying that he saw nobody on his beat. I think he was saying that he saw nothing unusual, and when he stated he didn't see anybody about, I reckon that related specifically to when he checked the square at 1.30am.

I imagine that you are going by the report in the Telegraph of the following exchange between Watkins and the coroner:

[Coroner] At half-past one did anything excite your attention? - No.

[Coroner] Did you see anyone about? - No.


I refer you to my #184 in Did Lawende see Kate Eddowes?


"And when did you pass through the square again?" asked the reporter.

"At about a quarter before two."

"Had you met any person on your rounds?"

"Not a soul."

(The Star, 1 October 1888)

[Fleetwood Mac]

He may not have, Harvey might have seen a man cross the street ahead of him, there's nothing suspicious about that, though I think he was already gone by the time Harvey emerged from Church Passage.
It was probably Harvey's approach coming down the passage that alerted the killer to leave the square.

I agree with the conclusion, Jon.

'Not sure about the idea that PC Harvey would have forgotten seeing a man cross the street moments before a body was discovered, however, particularly when you consider that he was paid to take notice of that which was going on around him.

On the other hand, when you look at PC Watkins' testimony, I don't think he was saying that he saw nobody on his beat. I think he was saying that he saw nothing unusual, and when he stated he didn't see anybody about, I reckon that related specifically to when he checked the square at 1.30am.

So, aye, both PC Harvey and PC Watkin could well have passed people or seen people ahead of them. Were it the case, as you suggest, then that would tell us that the WM didn't make his escape by running 'round drawing attention to himself, which is the way I always conceived of it.

Maybe you're right in that it's not the mystery we assume. Maybe he walked away looking outwardly calm, did pass police officers, but so did others; and he was just another face among a few, 'no reason to take a great deal of notice.

Still, in the event he came down from Aldgate High Street and entered the square via Mitre Street, then I see no good reason for him not to go back that way; he may even have passed DC Halse and associates when they were around St Botolph's Church.

I don't think we know how DC Halse got to Middlesex Street, but given he came down from Aldgate High Street way, and entered from Mitre Street (I think that's a fair assumption given that Morris ran in the direction of Aldgate from Mitre Street); it's reasonable to assume he went back that way and turned down Middlesex Street. I'd say it looks the simplest route from Mitre Street and they may have seen it that way also.

I reckon it depends on which exit the WM left from: Mitre Street makes it more likely he went back up Aldgate High Street and Duke Street means Stoney Lane becomes a decent option.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

In that context, it could just as easily have been someone from what was viewed as a more 'respectable' class in society, and the idea that he was running 'round displaying obvious signs of 'madness' was a Victorian, ill-conceived view. In the event this person was put in an asylum, then it will have been because they caught him as opposed to being because he was showing obvious signs of 'madness'.

Look at the descriptions of the men last seen with Stride, Eddowes and Kelly.

Do they seem like members of a 'more 'respectable' class'?

I have never subscribed to the theory that the Whitechapel Murderer was certifiable, nor even that he was showing signs of madness, and I am on record as arguing that a certain well-known schizophrenic had nothing to do with the murders, or any other murder.

The evidence suggests that he was a member of the lower classes who because of lack of education was the kind of person who might have mis-spelled a certain word which somehow keeps coming up in discussion of the murders, just as it did at the time.


Clarence, Druitt and Gull, for example, would have had no difficulty in spelling it.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I’ve started a new thread for any discussion on Trevor’s theory.

https://forum.casebook.org/forum/ripper-discussions/motive-method-and-madness/826724-did-the-killer-remove-organs#post826724

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Herlock.

The same day - Oct 1st.

Cheers Wick

[Wickerman]

And the killer could have had no time at all other than to murder and mutilate given we don't know what time the couple left to go into the square. You are forgetting the testimony of Dr Phillips who stated that with regards to Chapmans murder he could not have done all that was done to her in under 15 mins and that was in relation to a uterus only add a kidney to that with Eddowes

As I have previously stated the doctors both past and present all gave their opinions whether they could have carried out those removals in the same crime scene situation is unchartered territory the same goes for Dr Browns expert so in reality opinions are clearly divided

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

When a doctor operates on someone, and with a little bit more care, the patient is expected to be alive at the end of it.

[Wickerman]

'Seems the thread has lost its direction.

Mitre Square to Goulston Street.

In the event the murderer simply stumbled upon Goulston Street, broadly walking in that direction, as the OP suggests; then how did he avoid PC Harvey?

He may not have, Harvey might have seen a man cross the street ahead of him, there's nothing suspicious about that, though I think he was already gone by the time Harvey emerged from Church Passage.
It was probably Harvey's approach coming down the passage that alerted the killer to leave the square.