From Mitre Square to Goulston Street - Some thoughts.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

I still think that there’s possibility that Long didn’t see the apron at 2.20. Perhaps he just wasn’t a particularly diligent officer and hadn’t bothered to look into the doorway with his lamp. He was, after all, sacked in July of 1889 for being drunk on duty. A killer dropping the apron immediately after leaving Mitre Square would have been the likeliest scenario to the police so was Long just covering his own backside without thinking it out fully?

But if Long was not the only policeman to pass by that doorway at about 2.20 a.m., then why should he have felt the need to explain away the fact that he did not see the apron piece at that time?

[Wickerman]

Yes, if he lied and they caught the killer who then told them he’d dropped it immediately after leaving Mitre Square he’d have been exposed as a liar. If it wasn’t there it of course leaves us with the age old question - what had he been doing and where had he been in the meantime? Do you think that an injury might potentially be an explanation Wick? It’s seems a bit of a long time just to roughly dress a wound? Unless he whipped out his Gladstone bag and stitched himself up course? An alternative is some kind of bolt-hole of course. Then the thrill perhaps of going back out with the apron piece and dumping it?

Long would have been in a pickle if Halse had said he did see something in that entryway, but didn't stop to pick it up. He wouldn't need to of course because his duty was to find men on the streets and stop them for questioning. He was following Insp. Collard's instruction.

I'm forgetting about the email....I'll send it now.

[Herlock Sholmes]

That he missed it on his round at 2:20 is always going to be the preferred assumption, yet he is quite certain about it not being there.
He was taking a risk if he lied, perhaps he had not stepped inside the entryway on his round at 2:20, but did not want to admit that.

He is somewhat supported by Det. Halse who says he passed the same spot at 2:20 and he didn't see it either.

Yes, if he lied and they caught the killer who then told them he’d dropped it immediately after leaving Mitre Square he’d have been exposed as a liar. If it wasn’t there it of course leaves us with the age old question - what had he been doing and where had he been in the meantime? Do you think that an injury might potentially be an explanation Wick? It’s seems a bit of a long time just to roughly dress a wound? Unless he whipped out his Gladstone bag and stitched himself up course? An alternative is some kind of bolt-hole of course. Then the thrill perhaps of going back out with the apron piece and dumping it?

[Wickerman]

I agree. I think that we have to be wary of assumptions. It’s far from impossible that the killer returned and deposited the apron later because we don’t know the circumstances but it can’t be impossible that he did it immediately after leaving Mitre Square which, if it wasn’t for Long, would have been the likeliest scenario.

That he missed it on his round at 2:20 is always going to be the preferred assumption, yet he is quite certain about it not being there.
He was taking a risk if he lied, perhaps he had not stepped inside the entryway on his round at 2:20, but did not want to admit that.

He is somewhat supported by Det. Halse who says he passed the same spot at 2:20 and he didn't see it either.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I would tend to think this is the most likely scenario as well. I enjoy playing "what if?" with the stated facts, however, which is why I like considering the possibilities if Long was, in fact, correct in his evidence. After all, it creates a very deep well of consideration if the apron was actually not there on his first inspection.

I agree. I think that we have to be wary of assumptions. It’s far from impossible that the killer returned and deposited the apron later because we don’t know the circumstances but it can’t be impossible that he did it immediately after leaving Mitre Square which, if it wasn’t for Long, would have been the likeliest scenario.

[Single-O-Seven]

Hi,...but that isn't strictly true.
FM pointed out to me some years ago that Chapman had worn a scarf, but that scarf is not mentioned on her body when it is found. It appears to be missing.



Well, the present school of thought is the man who killed Eddowes also killed Stride, but the man who killed Stride didn't carry a bag. So, how could he come prepared to kill Eddowes?
So, it looks most likely he didn't come prepared to kill anyone. In fact there is no reason to believe he even came out with the intention of murdering someone. It could easily have been a spontaneous urge that comes over him.
I don't think this is a big issue as it is only obvious when the urge comes over him he can remove some clothing from the victim to carry the organ away. Why mess up a perfectly good leather bag?



Yes, it's not a new suggestion.



Medical records from hospitals of the period don't seem to exist.



Only someone like him, mentally speaking, could answer that. Are you aware that Jeffrey Dahmer kept trophy's in his fridge?

In July 1991, AP News detailed that a frantic handcuffed man led police to Jeffrey's fly-infested apartment, which was crawling with fragments of human bodies and boasted a refrigerator full of human heads — three of them to be exact. Some outlets have detailed that human hearts were also found inside the fridge.

https://www.distractify.com/p/jeffrey-dahmer-refrigerator

Sutcliffe kept articles of clothing, why they do this is a question only they can answer.

Hi Wickerman,

Thanks for your response. I wasn't aware of the scarf; if true, the may well change a lot of things.

I'd agree that he was likely spontaneous in his killing. But I often equate his murders to sex drive, as I feel he had his wires dangerously crossed and, like a lot of similar murderers, had from an early age over-lapped his sexuality with a desire for violence. It's possible he became spontaneously aroused and acted out the murders in the moment, but it's equally likely he was aroused and went out looking to satisfy his urges. I, therefore, consider it possible he was somewhat prepared for what he was going into, and I don't mean he had to carry a bag. Of course not. But he may have had oilskins, as said above, or butcher paper, or something similar to wrap up the organs, all of which would be more concealable than a bag. Of course, it's all speculation with little to back any of it - but that's what much of this case has going for it now. It's why most of us are here - to examine what facts we have, and think of various possibilities to link them and see what may or may not work best. At least until better evidence comes along, but that seems less and less likely.

I'm also aware that the idea he cut himself is not new - others have talked about it on these forums and in various books. There is even a series of articles linked under another thread about a man admitted to infirmary the day after the Double Event who caught the police's interest, though we aren't sure why. I know some infirmary records seem to have survived; it'd be nice if we got lucky and happened across some records that might name a POI with regard to the conjecture I made above. Not that that would seal the deal in terms of confirming the murderer's identity, but it might lend some weight to a suspect and generate further/deeper investigation into them.

[Single-O-Seven]

I still think that there’s possibility that Long didn’t see the apron at 2.20. Perhaps he just wasn’t a particularly diligent officer and hadn’t bothered to look into the doorway with his lamp. He was, after all, sacked in July of 1889 for being drunk on duty. A killer dropping the apron immediately after leaving Mitre Square would have been the likeliest scenario to the police so was Long just covering his own backside without thinking it out fully?

I would tend to think this is the most likely scenario as well. I enjoy playing "what if?" with the stated facts, however, which is why I like considering the possibilities if Long was, in fact, correct in his evidence. After all, it creates a very deep well of consideration if the apron was actually not there on his first inspection.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I still think that there’s possibility that Long didn’t see the apron at 2.20. Perhaps he just wasn’t a particularly diligent officer and hadn’t bothered to look into the doorway with his lamp. He was, after all, sacked in July of 1889 for being drunk on duty. A killer dropping the apron immediately after leaving Mitre Square would have been the likeliest scenario to the police so was Long just covering his own backside without thinking it out fully?

[Abby Normal]

I find it strange that he would need the apron to wrap the organs in. As far we we know, he took nothing to wrap up Chapman's organs, which suggests he either brought something to wrap/carry them with, or was comfortable hiding them in his pockets (which seems unlikely given what a mess that would make, possibly even soaking through his garments). It's also possible he did not have such forethought with Chapman, and was left with a mess to deal with. In the case of Eddowes, he'd likely have known his end goal was to collect further organs, and even if he did not come prepared for Chapman (which I think he did), he would most likely know better with Eddowes and not need the apron for that purpose. So why go through the trouble of cutting out a section and taking it?

I wonder if, given how dark the square was and how quickly he appeared to have worked, he may have slipped up and cut himself rather badly. He may have collected the piece of apron to staunch the wound after securing the organs elsewhere, and then fled. The apron was said to be smeared with blood/feces at one side, as if he'd wiped his knife on it, but "wet" with blood at the other. I speculate that he may have wiped off his knife blade, and used the remainder of the apron to pack his wound. If Long did not see it the first time, it may be that the killer still had it, and was hiding away holding it to his wound until the bleeding had stopped, at which point he could discard the apron without attracting attention by walking further through the streets while pressing it to wherever his wound may have been (most likely one of his hands).

It would not surprise me if he did cut himself, as such offender wounds are very common in knife assaults as the knife catches and slips against clothing, tissue, or the hand slips off the hilt due to how slick it can quickly get with so much blood being present. The darkness under which he worked and the speed/pressure under which he worked would have added to his margin for error, which was increased further by how extensively he had cut Eddowes. If he had cut his hand, say, and possibly needed stitches and time to heal, it might add to the reasons why he did not strike through October.

To that, I wonder if it would be a point of possible investigation: might there be hospital/infirmary records from Sept 30 or after indicating anyone who received treatment for a bad cut? He could obviously have given any excuse to a doctor as to how it happened, and as I don't believe the police at the time investigated that train of thought, he likely would have gone unnoticed.

If he was prepared to carry off organs, what do you think he might have used? Simple butcher paper slipped inside his pockets would have been enough; he could have quickly wrapped them and tucked them back in his pockets that way.

hi single
cutting himself is a possibility but i doubt it. i think he probably brought a rag or hankerchief with him. on the double event, i think he brought something with him, but after the botched stride attempt, used that rag to wipe his hands(the church street sighting where a suspicious man was seen wiping his hands in between the two murder sites) and discarded it. then used eddowes apron piece to carry away organs to his bolt hole. he then goes back out to place the bloody apron and write the gsg for a little payback(to all those pesky jews who interupted/ saw him) and obsfucation.

[Fiver]

I find it strange that he would need the apron to wrap the organs in. As far we we know, he took nothing to wrap up Chapman's organs, which suggests he either brought something to wrap/carry them with, or was comfortable hiding them in his pockets (which seems unlikely given what a mess that would make, possibly even soaking through his garments). It's also possible he did not have such forethought with Chapman, and was left with a mess to deal with. In the case of Eddowes, he'd likely have known his end goal was to collect further organs, and even if he did not come prepared for Chapman (which I think he did), he would most likely know better with Eddowes and not need the apron for that purpose. So why go through the trouble of cutting out a section and taking it?

I wonder if, given how dark the square was and how quickly he appeared to have worked, he may have slipped up and cut himself rather badly. He may have collected the piece of apron to staunch the wound after securing the organs elsewhere, and then fled. The apron was said to be smeared with blood/feces at one side, as if he'd wiped his knife on it, but "wet" with blood at the other. I speculate that he may have wiped off his knife blade, and used the remainder of the apron to pack his wound. If Long did not see it the first time, it may be that the killer still had it, and was hiding away holding it to his wound until the bleeding had stopped, at which point he could discard the apron without attracting attention by walking further through the streets while pressing it to wherever his wound may have been (most likely one of his hands).

It would not surprise me if he did cut himself, as such offender wounds are very common in knife assaults as the knife catches and slips against clothing, tissue, or the hand slips off the hilt due to how slick it can quickly get with so much blood being present. The darkness under which he worked and the speed/pressure under which he worked would have added to his margin for error, which was increased further by how extensively he had cut Eddowes. If he had cut his hand, say, and possibly needed stitches and time to heal, it might add to the reasons why he did not strike through October.

To that, I wonder if it would be a point of possible investigation: might there be hospital/infirmary records from Sept 30 or after indicating anyone who received treatment for a bad cut? He could obviously have given any excuse to a doctor as to how it happened, and as I don't believe the police at the time investigated that train of thought, he likely would have gone unnoticed.

If he was prepared to carry off organs, what do you think he might have used? Simple butcher paper slipped inside his pockets would have been enough; he could have quickly wrapped them and tucked them back in his pockets that way.

I have considered the same possibility. Odds are very good that such a wound would become infected, which could explain the time gap between the double event and the Kelly murder.

[Wickerman]

I find it strange that he would need the apron to wrap the organs in. As far we we know, he took nothing to wrap up Chapman's organs,...

Hi,...but that isn't strictly true.
FM pointed out to me some years ago that Chapman had worn a scarf, but that scarf is not mentioned on her body when it is found. It appears to be missing.

In the case of Eddowes, he'd likely have known his end goal was to collect further organs, and even if he did not come prepared for Chapman (which I think he did), he would most likely know better with Eddowes and not need the apron for that purpose. So why go through the trouble of cutting out a section and taking it?

Well, the present school of thought is the man who killed Eddowes also killed Stride, but the man who killed Stride didn't carry a bag. So, how could he come prepared to kill Eddowes?
So, it looks most likely he didn't come prepared to kill anyone. In fact there is no reason to believe he even came out with the intention of murdering someone. It could easily have been a spontaneous urge that comes over him.
I don't think this is a big issue as it is only obvious when the urge comes over him he can remove some clothing from the victim to carry the organ away. Why mess up a perfectly good leather bag?

I wonder if, given how dark the square was and how quickly he appeared to have worked, he may have slipped up and cut himself rather badly. He may have collected the piece of apron to staunch the wound after securing the organs elsewhere, and then fled. The apron was said to be smeared with blood/feces at one side, as if he'd wiped his knife on it, but "wet" with blood at the other. I speculate that he may have wiped off his knife blade, and used the remainder of the apron to pack his wound. If Long did not see it the first time, it may be that the killer still had it, and was hiding away holding it to his wound until the bleeding had stopped, at which point he could discard the apron without attracting attention by walking further through the streets while pressing it to wherever his wound may have been (most likely one of his hands).

Yes, it's not a new suggestion.

To that, I wonder if it would be a point of possible investigation: might there be hospital/infirmary records from Sept 30 or after indicating anyone who received treatment for a bad cut? He could obviously have given any excuse to a doctor as to how it happened, and as I don't believe the police at the time investigated that train of thought, he likely would have gone unnoticed.

Medical records from hospitals of the period don't seem to exist.

If he was prepared to carry off organs, what do you think he might have used? Simple butcher paper slipped inside his pockets would have been enough; he could have quickly wrapped them and tucked them back in his pockets that way.

Only someone like him, mentally speaking, could answer that. Are you aware that Jeffrey Dahmer kept trophy's in his fridge?

In July 1991, AP News detailed that a frantic handcuffed man led police to Jeffrey's fly-infested apartment, which was crawling with fragments of human bodies and boasted a refrigerator full of human heads — three of them to be exact. Some outlets have detailed that human hearts were also found inside the fridge.

https://www.distractify.com/p/jeffrey-dahmer-refrigerator

Sutcliffe kept articles of clothing, why they do this is a question only they can answer.

[Enigma]

If he was prepared to carry off organs, what do you think he might have used? Simple butcher paper slipped inside his pockets would have been enough; he could have quickly wrapped them and tucked them back in his pockets that way.

A piece of oil skin is another possibility.

[Single-O-Seven]

I find it strange that he would need the apron to wrap the organs in. As far we we know, he took nothing to wrap up Chapman's organs, which suggests he either brought something to wrap/carry them with, or was comfortable hiding them in his pockets (which seems unlikely given what a mess that would make, possibly even soaking through his garments). It's also possible he did not have such forethought with Chapman, and was left with a mess to deal with. In the case of Eddowes, he'd likely have known his end goal was to collect further organs, and even if he did not come prepared for Chapman (which I think he did), he would most likely know better with Eddowes and not need the apron for that purpose. So why go through the trouble of cutting out a section and taking it?

I wonder if, given how dark the square was and how quickly he appeared to have worked, he may have slipped up and cut himself rather badly. He may have collected the piece of apron to staunch the wound after securing the organs elsewhere, and then fled. The apron was said to be smeared with blood/feces at one side, as if he'd wiped his knife on it, but "wet" with blood at the other. I speculate that he may have wiped off his knife blade, and used the remainder of the apron to pack his wound. If Long did not see it the first time, it may be that the killer still had it, and was hiding away holding it to his wound until the bleeding had stopped, at which point he could discard the apron without attracting attention by walking further through the streets while pressing it to wherever his wound may have been (most likely one of his hands).

It would not surprise me if he did cut himself, as such offender wounds are very common in knife assaults as the knife catches and slips against clothing, tissue, or the hand slips off the hilt due to how slick it can quickly get with so much blood being present. The darkness under which he worked and the speed/pressure under which he worked would have added to his margin for error, which was increased further by how extensively he had cut Eddowes. If he had cut his hand, say, and possibly needed stitches and time to heal, it might add to the reasons why he did not strike through October.

To that, I wonder if it would be a point of possible investigation: might there be hospital/infirmary records from Sept 30 or after indicating anyone who received treatment for a bad cut? He could obviously have given any excuse to a doctor as to how it happened, and as I don't believe the police at the time investigated that train of thought, he likely would have gone unnoticed.

If he was prepared to carry off organs, what do you think he might have used? Simple butcher paper slipped inside his pockets would have been enough; he could have quickly wrapped them and tucked them back in his pockets that way.

[Lewis C]

I think I was trying to make a distinction between the killer living east of Goulston St., implying he dropped the apron on his way further east, which I don't agree with.

My thoughts are more like, he carried the organs away from the crime scene in the apron. Took them to his room, returned to the street with the idea of planting the bloodstained rag at some location away from his residence.
Whether the intended spot was where it was found, or whether he was headed somewhere else and heard a constable coming towards him so ditched it anywhere out of sight, I don't know.
But, if he dropped the apron on his way home then how come it was not there at 2:25 when PC Long passed that same spot, plus, where are the organs?

So, I suspect he had to go somewhere else first, which took longer, but still reasonably close so he was able to go back to the street to pass that spot on Goulston St. after 2:25, but before 2:55.
I'm not suggesting N/E or N/W, or S/E of Goulston St specifically, it could be either. It's just that he had to live somewhere close to that spot.
The trouble is a 15 minutes walk can cover a wide area. Some suggested Mitre Square was a 10 minute walk from Dutfields Yard.
If you draw a radius of 10-15 minute walk around 108-119 Goulston St., it will encompass a huge number of houses.

The apron piece was found roughly 1 hr 10 mins after the murder.
So assuming he spends 15 minutes in his room dealing with the organs, we have about 55 minutes to account for. Split that in two (coming-going) then something in the order of 27 minutes one way is about the limit of where he could have this room.
Drawing a 27 minute radius around 108-119, makes for a huge circle, which is no help at all.

OK, that makes sense.

[Wickerman]

Thanks, Jon, especially for the information about the street lamp.

The map had a small legend explaining some lines




Here a small detail locating the 'A' as where the apron was found, and very faint in pencil at the right side you can just read "lamp", with a line drawn to the left side of the 'A'.



Though it must be said, as yet no street map or ordnance survey map has placed a lamp at that precise spot.