From Mitre Square to Goulston Street - Some thoughts.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

I reckon the motive is missing.

By your own admission, this piece of apron could have linked him to the crime.

What could have happened in his life (in relation to 'the Jews') that made it worthwhile risking his life, all for a message on a wall?

What was he hoping to achieve by writing that message, that would have made it worth risking his life?

I was not aware that I had made an admission, FM.

If Long's testimony is correct, then the murderer must have gone to Wentworth Dwellings more than 40 minutes after leaving Mitre Square and for the express purpose of leaving the piece of apron there.

He was thereby risking his life anyway.

[Fleetwood Mac]

But I am going by the evidence: Long's testimony, if true, rules out the mere discarding of the apron, the murderer knew that the apron piece he took could be identified as Eddowes', and the proximity of the message, which could easily have been rubbed out had it been there the previous day or days, to the apron piece, suggests a connection with it.

I reckon the motive is missing.

By your own admission, this piece of apron could have linked him to the crime.

What could have happened in his life (in relation to 'the Jews') that made it worthwhile risking his life, all for a message on a wall?

What was he hoping to achieve by writing that message, that would have made it worth risking his life?

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Why would a serial killer write that message?

The police thought at the time that he did it to exploit local anti-Jewish feelings.

There had been a march down Hanbury Street with chants declaring that the murderer was a Jew, an apron reportedly found in the yard giving rise to accusations against a local Jew, and an erroneous report that the murderer had left a chalked message in the yard.

Is it purely coincidental that aprons and chalked messages figure in both the Hanbury Street and Mitre Square murders?

But I am going by the evidence: Long's testimony, if true, rules out the mere discarding of the apron, the murderer knew that the apron piece he took could be identified as Eddowes', and the proximity of the message, which could easily have been rubbed out had it been there the previous day or days, to the apron piece, suggests a connection with it.

[Fleetwood Mac]

If there was no particular purpose in cutting the apron and taking half of it with him, then why commit either act?

Clearly there was a reason otherwise he wouldn't have done it.

The only explanation that makes sense to me is that the apron piece authenticated the graffito as having been written by the murderer.

I think you're saying the WM wrote it and the apron was dropped there to prove that point. In the event I have that wrong, then feel free to correct me.

For what purpose? Why would a serial killer write that message?

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

It does not make sense to me.

There was no need to cut the apron in two, no need to carry one half of it so far from the scene of the murder, and no need to discard it where it was found, unless for a specific purpose.

If, as some have suggested, he took the apron piece in order to wrap the kidney in it, then why was the kidney not found with it, unless he returned to base before leaving the apron piece where it was found?

If there was no particular purpose in cutting the apron and taking half of it with him, then why commit either act?

If he used the apron piece to wipe the knife, then why not do that and leave the apron in the Square?

There is also the fact that Pc Long testified that the apron piece was not in the entrance to Wentworth Dwellings about 40 minutes after the murderer must have left Mitre Square.

That means he could hardly have discarded it on his way back to base.

The only explanation that makes sense to me is that the apron piece authenticated the graffito as having been written by the murderer.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Purely anecdotal I know but making that journey by foot at a brisk place has pretty much convinced me that the killer possibly taking a similar route was fleeing back toward Whitechapel, passing the entrance way to the Wentworth model dwellings (as you do!) he dumps the bloodied/soiled piece of apron. No hanging around. No writing on the wall. No hiding in a bolt hole to emerge later on. Just passing through in a great hurry. It just makes the most sense, especially when you follow the route in person.

It makes the most sense to me too.

When he left the square, he may have left in a hurry and so didn't have his gains and tools in order, and so just bundled them all in wherever he could hide them on his person.

Goulston Street is not necessarily significant outside of him thinking he was far enough away from the crime scene to have the space to stop, get his items together and organised as best he could on his person, dress himself down a bit; and feel more composed for the walk home, wherever that was.

By the time DC Halse organised a search, the WM had approx. 20 minutes on him. We (criminals and otherwise) know that in today's society, police cars can be radioed in very quickly. He could well have known that in his society, the method of police procedure and the nature of communication/telegraphs; meant he had the time to stop at Goulston Street long before a search would be upon him.

And from there, the idea that he was running around in back alleys could well be a quick and ill-conceived judgement. 'Well away from the crime scene by the time a search was organised and may well have known that would be the case. 'No real reason to run down back alleys and his best option may have been to walk down a main road like nothing was the matter in among other people walking down the street, at least while he was confident no search was taking place (based upon what he knew of how it worked in his society).

[Herlock Sholmes]

Yes.

You are right.

According to the record we have, Long gave evidence just before Halse.

But Long was quite definite that the apron was not there at 2.20 a.m.

[Coroner] Are you able to say whether the apron was there then? - It was not.

He did not need to be definite.

That said, Long would have been in a sticky situation if the killer had been caught and said that he’d deposited the apron as soon as he’d left Mitre Square.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

It looks like Halse didn’t particularly check the doorway closely though PI:

By Mr. Crawford: “At twenty minutes past two o'clock I passed over the spot where the piece of apron was found, but did not notice anything then. I should not necessarily have seen the piece of apron.“

Also, do we have any way of knowing if Long was aware that Halse had been in Goulston Street at close to the time that he himself had been there?

Yes.

You are right.

According to the record we have, Long gave evidence just before Halse.

But Long was quite definite that the apron was not there at 2.20 a.m.

[Coroner] Are you able to say whether the apron was there then? - It was not.

He did not need to be definite.

[Herlock Sholmes]

But if Long was not the only policeman to pass by that doorway at about 2.20 a.m., then why should he have felt the need to explain away the fact that he did not see the apron piece at that time?

It looks like Halse didn’t particularly check the doorway closely though PI:

By Mr. Crawford: “At twenty minutes past two o'clock I passed over the spot where the piece of apron was found, but did not notice anything then. I should not necessarily have seen the piece of apron.“

Also, do we have any way of knowing if Long was aware that Halse had been in Goulston Street at close to the time that he himself had been there?

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

I still think that there’s possibility that Long didn’t see the apron at 2.20. Perhaps he just wasn’t a particularly diligent officer and hadn’t bothered to look into the doorway with his lamp. He was, after all, sacked in July of 1889 for being drunk on duty. A killer dropping the apron immediately after leaving Mitre Square would have been the likeliest scenario to the police so was Long just covering his own backside without thinking it out fully?

But if Long was not the only policeman to pass by that doorway at about 2.20 a.m., then why should he have felt the need to explain away the fact that he did not see the apron piece at that time?

[Wickerman]

Yes, if he lied and they caught the killer who then told them he’d dropped it immediately after leaving Mitre Square he’d have been exposed as a liar. If it wasn’t there it of course leaves us with the age old question - what had he been doing and where had he been in the meantime? Do you think that an injury might potentially be an explanation Wick? It’s seems a bit of a long time just to roughly dress a wound? Unless he whipped out his Gladstone bag and stitched himself up course? An alternative is some kind of bolt-hole of course. Then the thrill perhaps of going back out with the apron piece and dumping it?

Long would have been in a pickle if Halse had said he did see something in that entryway, but didn't stop to pick it up. He wouldn't need to of course because his duty was to find men on the streets and stop them for questioning. He was following Insp. Collard's instruction.

I'm forgetting about the email....I'll send it now.

[Herlock Sholmes]

That he missed it on his round at 2:20 is always going to be the preferred assumption, yet he is quite certain about it not being there.
He was taking a risk if he lied, perhaps he had not stepped inside the entryway on his round at 2:20, but did not want to admit that.

He is somewhat supported by Det. Halse who says he passed the same spot at 2:20 and he didn't see it either.

Yes, if he lied and they caught the killer who then told them he’d dropped it immediately after leaving Mitre Square he’d have been exposed as a liar. If it wasn’t there it of course leaves us with the age old question - what had he been doing and where had he been in the meantime? Do you think that an injury might potentially be an explanation Wick? It’s seems a bit of a long time just to roughly dress a wound? Unless he whipped out his Gladstone bag and stitched himself up course? An alternative is some kind of bolt-hole of course. Then the thrill perhaps of going back out with the apron piece and dumping it?

[Wickerman]

I agree. I think that we have to be wary of assumptions. It’s far from impossible that the killer returned and deposited the apron later because we don’t know the circumstances but it can’t be impossible that he did it immediately after leaving Mitre Square which, if it wasn’t for Long, would have been the likeliest scenario.

That he missed it on his round at 2:20 is always going to be the preferred assumption, yet he is quite certain about it not being there.
He was taking a risk if he lied, perhaps he had not stepped inside the entryway on his round at 2:20, but did not want to admit that.

He is somewhat supported by Det. Halse who says he passed the same spot at 2:20 and he didn't see it either.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I would tend to think this is the most likely scenario as well. I enjoy playing "what if?" with the stated facts, however, which is why I like considering the possibilities if Long was, in fact, correct in his evidence. After all, it creates a very deep well of consideration if the apron was actually not there on his first inspection.

I agree. I think that we have to be wary of assumptions. It’s far from impossible that the killer returned and deposited the apron later because we don’t know the circumstances but it can’t be impossible that he did it immediately after leaving Mitre Square which, if it wasn’t for Long, would have been the likeliest scenario.

[Single-O-Seven]

Hi,...but that isn't strictly true.
FM pointed out to me some years ago that Chapman had worn a scarf, but that scarf is not mentioned on her body when it is found. It appears to be missing.



Well, the present school of thought is the man who killed Eddowes also killed Stride, but the man who killed Stride didn't carry a bag. So, how could he come prepared to kill Eddowes?
So, it looks most likely he didn't come prepared to kill anyone. In fact there is no reason to believe he even came out with the intention of murdering someone. It could easily have been a spontaneous urge that comes over him.
I don't think this is a big issue as it is only obvious when the urge comes over him he can remove some clothing from the victim to carry the organ away. Why mess up a perfectly good leather bag?



Yes, it's not a new suggestion.



Medical records from hospitals of the period don't seem to exist.



Only someone like him, mentally speaking, could answer that. Are you aware that Jeffrey Dahmer kept trophy's in his fridge?

In July 1991, AP News detailed that a frantic handcuffed man led police to Jeffrey's fly-infested apartment, which was crawling with fragments of human bodies and boasted a refrigerator full of human heads — three of them to be exact. Some outlets have detailed that human hearts were also found inside the fridge.

https://www.distractify.com/p/jeffrey-dahmer-refrigerator

Sutcliffe kept articles of clothing, why they do this is a question only they can answer.

Hi Wickerman,

Thanks for your response. I wasn't aware of the scarf; if true, the may well change a lot of things.

I'd agree that he was likely spontaneous in his killing. But I often equate his murders to sex drive, as I feel he had his wires dangerously crossed and, like a lot of similar murderers, had from an early age over-lapped his sexuality with a desire for violence. It's possible he became spontaneously aroused and acted out the murders in the moment, but it's equally likely he was aroused and went out looking to satisfy his urges. I, therefore, consider it possible he was somewhat prepared for what he was going into, and I don't mean he had to carry a bag. Of course not. But he may have had oilskins, as said above, or butcher paper, or something similar to wrap up the organs, all of which would be more concealable than a bag. Of course, it's all speculation with little to back any of it - but that's what much of this case has going for it now. It's why most of us are here - to examine what facts we have, and think of various possibilities to link them and see what may or may not work best. At least until better evidence comes along, but that seems less and less likely.

I'm also aware that the idea he cut himself is not new - others have talked about it on these forums and in various books. There is even a series of articles linked under another thread about a man admitted to infirmary the day after the Double Event who caught the police's interest, though we aren't sure why. I know some infirmary records seem to have survived; it'd be nice if we got lucky and happened across some records that might name a POI with regard to the conjecture I made above. Not that that would seal the deal in terms of confirming the murderer's identity, but it might lend some weight to a suspect and generate further/deeper investigation into them.