Organ removal ? Warning Graphic Photos

[Fleetwood Mac]

You are making it up again just as you did on the Richardson thread

But you dont know what time the couple entered Mitre Square they were seen standing talking at 1.35am there is no evidence that they were seen to move off. So that being said we do not know what time the couple left that spot to walk into the square it could have been as late as 1.38am. The longer it took for them to walk into the square the less time the killer had with the victim at the crime scene.

Then we have Pc Harvey who came down Church passage at 1.40am approx according to his signed testimony, his time must be fairly accurate because he had left that location when he heard Morris blowing his whistle and before 1.44am when Watkins found the body and long enough for the killer to murder and mutilate Eddowes,

So I dont know whatclock you are working to with your timings

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

To add to your post, Trevor:

From The Times, 12th October 1888.

"By Mr. Crawford. - The distance between the Imperial Club and the top of Church-passage, where he [Lawende] saw the man and the woman standing together, was about nine or ten yards. He fixed the time of leaving the club at half-past 1 by reference to the club clock and to his own watch, and it would have been about 25 minutes to 2 o'clock when he saw the man and woman standing together…"

So, Lawende has reference to the club clock and his own watch, and this is a very short walk from the Imperial Club to Church Passage.

According to The Telegraph report of the inquest, both Lawende and Levy stated they rose to leave at 1.30am and Levy added a few more details in that they came out 3 to 4 minutes later. This would be consistent with reaching Church passage at 1.35am. Obviously, there is a degree of estimating by both Levy and Lawende but given they would have done that walk countless times, and the short space of time involved from rising to leave to arriving at Church Passage; we really shouldn't expect Lawende and Levy to be too far out with their timings.

As you quite rightly point out, there is the time required to enter the square. In the event Lawende saw Catherine and the WM, can it reasonably be argued that the WM was aware of police beats given that Watkins had passed by at 1.30-1.32am, they were still standing talking at 1.35am and Watkins was due back at 1.44am? I don't think so. That being the case, there is no reason to think the WM and Catherine immediately hurried into the square as soon as Lawende, Levy and Harris turned the corner.

In addition, given he cut a piece of the apron to take with him, this would suggest the WM did not leave in a hurry.

It is tempting to suggest that the couple seen by Lawende and associates were not Catherine and the WM.

But then we have both doctors, Brown and Sequeira, who believed that Catherine was murdered at 1.40am at the earliest.

As with so many other areas of this case, there is no proposal devoid of obstacles.

[Herlock Sholmes]

You are making it up again just as you did on the Richardson thread

So just to be clear then Trevor…..you’re saying that all timings are spot on, all clocks were perfectly accurate and all clocks were perfectly synchronised?

But you dont know what time the couple entered Mitre Square they were seen standing talking at 1.35am there is no evidence that they were seen to move off.

To Lawende - You were not curious enough to look back and see where they went. - No.

And there’s no evidence that they stood around so it’s possible that they walked directly to the spot. A possibility os all that’s required.

So that being said we do not know what time the couple left that spot to walk into the square it could have been as late as 1.38am. The longer it took for them to walk into the square the less time the killer had with the victim at the crime scene.

You can’t prove a positive with a ‘might have been’ Trevor. Or do you dispute that?

Then we have Pc Harvey who came down Church passage at 1.40am approx according to his signed testimony, his time must be fairly accurate because he had left that location when he heard Morris blowing his whistle and before 1.44am when Watkins found the body and long enough for the killer to murder and mutilate Eddowes,

Harvey: “I go as far as to the end of Church Passage. I was at the end of Church Passage about 18 or 19 minutes to 2.” So 1.41/1.42 he got to the end of the passage…he didn’t go into the square.

You will notice the word ‘about’ Trevor. People don’t say ‘about’ if they’re confident of the time. I assume that you don’t dispute that?

So I dont know whatclock you are working to with your timings

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Normal clocks Trevor. I assume that no one involved in this case was basing their times on a Microwave Atomic Clock.

[Trevor Marriott]

We can’t know how much time the killer actually had available to him that night but we aren’t going to be too far off in any estimation. I know that some get a little ‘uptight’ when we mention margins for error on times and the fact that clocked weren’t synchronised but these are just facts that he have to accept the possibility of. So what times do we have to work with:

Catherine Eddowes left the station at 1.00. We can’t assume an exact time of course but it doesn’t matter when it comes to the time available to the murderer.

PC Watkin discovered the body at 1.44 although we don’t know source of time) His beat took 12-14 minutes and he said at the inquest:

“I was continually patrolling my beat from ten o'clock up to half-past one. I noticed nothing unusual up till 1.44, when I saw the body.”

So as he said “up to half-past one,” it’s possible that he just added 14 minutes as an upper average to 1.30 arrive at a time of 1.44. So it has to be possible that we might add a measly 1 or 2 minutes to have actually made it 1.46. But I’ll stick to 1.44 for now.

Harvey said, after being asked what time he’d previously been in Aldgate:

“At twenty-eight minutes past one o'clock I passed the post-office clock.” I’m unsure of the location of the PO (someone will know I’m sure) but can we say that Harvey checked the yard at around 1.30? Can we be certain how thoroughly he checked it? But I’ll leave that point for now.

Lawende said the he left the club at 1.30 and it would have been 1.35 when they possible saw Eddowes.

Levy, however, said that they left the club at 1.33/1.34. So there appears to be a slight discrepancy between the two.

Now….allowing the dreaded, but entirely reasonable, margins for error…

We have Watkin discovering the body at 1.44 (+ - 2 mins)

Lawende and Levy saw ‘Eddowes’ at 1.35 (+ or - 2 mins) then allowing 1 minute to get the the murder site.

If the killer left on hearing Watkin approach this would have given him around 8 minutes. If Harvey was a couple of minutes later than he estimated then the killer would have had 10 minutes. If the clock in the club was 2 or 3 minutes fast then we could be looking at 12 minutes. None of us can claim certainty on times. I’m certainly not trying to. I’m just stating that we have to remember a reasonable margin for error. In this particular murder they only had to have been very slight and we can easily get from 8 to 12 minutes for the killer to have done what he did. We can’t claim time accuracies that we have no way of checking, we can’t claim that clocks were all accurate and synchronised and we can’t assume that people had watches when they might simply have been estimating times based on clocks that they’d seen which also might have been wrong.

You are making it up again just as you did on the Richardson thread

But you dont know what time the couple entered Mitre Square they were seen standing talking at 1.35am there is no evidence that they were seen to move off. So that being said we do not know what time the couple left that spot to walk into the square it could have been as late as 1.38am. The longer it took for them to walk into the square the less time the killer had with the victim at the crime scene.

Then we have Pc Harvey who came down Church passage at 1.40am approx according to his signed testimony, his time must be fairly accurate because he had left that location when he heard Morris blowing his whistle and before 1.44am when Watkins found the body and long enough for the killer to murder and mutilate Eddowes,

So I dont know whatclock you are working to with your timings

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Herlock Sholmes]

Excellent post Herlock. There does seem to be more of an acceptance that accurate to the minute clock times aren't realistic for those days since the discussions on that topic in the Stride thread.

Cheers, George

Thanks George.

[GBinOz]

We can’t know how much time the killer actually had available to him that night but we aren’t going to be too far off in any estimation. I know that some get a little ‘uptight’ when we mention margins for error on times and the fact that clocked weren’t synchronised but these are just facts that he have to accept the possibility of. So what times do we have to work with:

Catherine Eddowes left the station at 1.00. We can’t assume an exact time of course but it doesn’t matter when it comes to the time available to the murderer.

PC Watkin discovered the body at 1.44 although we don’t know source of time) His beat took 12-14 minutes and he said at the inquest:

“I was continually patrolling my beat from ten o'clock up to half-past one. I noticed nothing unusual up till 1.44, when I saw the body.”

So as he said “up to half-past one,” it’s possible that he just added 14 minutes as an upper average to 1.30 arrive at a time of 1.44. So it has to be possible that we might add a measly 1 or 2 minutes to have actually made it 1.46. But I’ll stick to 1.44 for now.

Harvey said, after being asked what time he’d previously been in Aldgate:

“At twenty-eight minutes past one o'clock I passed the post-office clock.” I’m unsure of the location of the PO (someone will know I’m sure) but can we say that Harvey checked the yard at around 1.30? Can we be certain how thoroughly he checked it? But I’ll leave that point for now.

Lawende said the he left the club at 1.30 and it would have been 1.35 when they possible saw Eddowes.

Levy, however, said that they left the club at 1.33/1.34. So there appears to be a slight discrepancy between the two.

Now….allowing the dreaded, but entirely reasonable, margins for error…

We have Watkin discovering the body at 1.44 (+ - 2 mins)

Lawende and Levy saw ‘Eddowes’ at 1.35 (+ or - 2 mins) then allowing 1 minute to get the the murder site.

If the killer left on hearing Watkin approach this would have given him around 8 minutes. If Harvey was a couple of minutes later than he estimated then the killer would have had 10 minutes. If the clock in the club was 2 or 3 minutes fast then we could be looking at 12 minutes. None of us can claim certainty on times. I’m certainly not trying to. I’m just stating that we have to remember a reasonable margin for error. In this particular murder they only had to have been very slight and we can easily get from 8 to 12 minutes for the killer to have done what he did. We can’t claim time accuracies that we have no way of checking, we can’t claim that clocks were all accurate and synchronised and we can’t assume that people had watches when they might simply have been estimating times based on clocks that they’d seen which also might have been wrong.

Excellent post Herlock. There does seem to be more of an acceptance that accurate to the minute clock times aren't realistic for those days since the discussions on that topic in the Stride thread.

Cheers, George

[milchmanuk]

yes 14 minutes of max enjoyment ?
and play organ removal.
or
two operations at work as Trevor is suggesting
or just rabid killer over estimated as.

i have thought of a group or two people at work ?
but how many could stomach murder really.

[DJA]

He had just under 14 minutes in Mitre Square.

[Herlock Sholmes]

We can’t know how much time the killer actually had available to him that night but we aren’t going to be too far off in any estimation. I know that some get a little ‘uptight’ when we mention margins for error on times and the fact that clocked weren’t synchronised but these are just facts that he have to accept the possibility of. So what times do we have to work with:

Catherine Eddowes left the station at 1.00. We can’t assume an exact time of course but it doesn’t matter when it comes to the time available to the murderer.

PC Watkin discovered the body at 1.44 although we don’t know source of time) His beat took 12-14 minutes and he said at the inquest:

“I was continually patrolling my beat from ten o'clock up to half-past one. I noticed nothing unusual up till 1.44, when I saw the body.”

So as he said “up to half-past one,” it’s possible that he just added 14 minutes as an upper average to 1.30 arrive at a time of 1.44. So it has to be possible that we might add a measly 1 or 2 minutes to have actually made it 1.46. But I’ll stick to 1.44 for now.

Harvey said, after being asked what time he’d previously been in Aldgate:

“At twenty-eight minutes past one o'clock I passed the post-office clock.” I’m unsure of the location of the PO (someone will know I’m sure) but can we say that Harvey checked the yard at around 1.30? Can we be certain how thoroughly he checked it? But I’ll leave that point for now.

Lawende said the he left the club at 1.30 and it would have been 1.35 when they possible saw Eddowes.

Levy, however, said that they left the club at 1.33/1.34. So there appears to be a slight discrepancy between the two.

Now….allowing the dreaded, but entirely reasonable, margins for error…

We have Watkin discovering the body at 1.44 (+ - 2 mins)

Lawende and Levy saw ‘Eddowes’ at 1.35 (+ or - 2 mins) then allowing 1 minute to get the the murder site.

If the killer left on hearing Watkin approach this would have given him around 8 minutes. If Harvey was a couple of minutes later than he estimated then the killer would have had 10 minutes. If the clock in the club was 2 or 3 minutes fast then we could be looking at 12 minutes. None of us can claim certainty on times. I’m certainly not trying to. I’m just stating that we have to remember a reasonable margin for error. In this particular murder they only had to have been very slight and we can easily get from 8 to 12 minutes for the killer to have done what he did. We can’t claim time accuracies that we have no way of checking, we can’t claim that clocks were all accurate and synchronised and we can’t assume that people had watches when they might simply have been estimating times based on clocks that they’d seen which also might have been wrong.

[FISHY1118]

Apart from when it came to Mary Kelly. Then it was a convenient "copycat".

Ive discussed this very point with Trevor , and have suggested Mary Kelly is a problem with his theory .

Her organs were removed at the scene , there is no evidence im aware of that suggest they were hacked out of her body during the mutilation stage ,they may well have been taken out just as carefully and accurately as other victims were pryor to her specific mutilation.

He disagrees with this . That ok with me , he is entitled to his opinion as we all are . Where i do dissagree with him tho is his assurance that his theory is the ''truth'' and 100% correct. As weve seen on other threads nothing to do with jtr is 100% correct as to how the murders were committed and who the murderer was . But hey my opinion only.

[Herlock Sholmes]

there can be no other conclusion

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

You obviously have a different definition of the word proof to everyone else Trevor.

[Trevor Marriott]

So you know this for a fact Trevor? Absolutely no doubt in your mind? And you’ve arrived at this conclusion despite what the 2 Doctors said just because you’ve looked at the position of the kidney in the body and have found that there was a market for body parts?

there can be no other conclusion

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Herlock Sholmes]

100% correct

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

So you know this for a fact Trevor? Absolutely no doubt in your mind? And you’ve arrived at this conclusion despite what the 2 Doctors said just because you’ve looked at the position of the kidney in the body and have found that there was a market for body parts?

[Harry D]

i have read some of posts before.
it sounds like your saying that the organs were removed at the mortuary.
for resale ?
or practitioner at ? practice learning trade ?
teaching with dead corpse ?

Apart from when it came to Mary Kelly. Then it was a convenient "copycat".

[Trevor Marriott]

i have read some of posts before.
it sounds like your saying that the organs were removed at the mortuary.
for resale ?
or practitioner at ? practice learning trade ?
teaching with dead corpse ?

100% correct

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Herlock Sholmes]

Modern day experts can't produce Damascus steel or concrete that lasts 2000 years either, so what's your point?

Its a very obvious point George. A Doctor could cut and remove a kidney in 1888. They knew how to use a knife, how long it took to cut through skin,, and fat etc. So a Doctor could make a reasonable estimate about how long it would take to cut out an organ.

But a Doctor in 1888 couldn’t make a TOD estimate that was more accurate and reliable than a forensic expert in 2022.

Are you now going to spend the rest of your time on here just finding whatever post I make on whatever subject just so that you can disagree with it?