was Eddowes strangled?

[GBinOz]

Hi George,
I've posted this before.
It is the initial infection points for Rheumatic Fever before the strep gets into the small intestine,heart,kidneys,etc.
Compare .....


Ciao,

Dave.

Hi Dave,

Thanks for the information. I have seen some of your posts but they have been addressing specific incidents. I understand that your theory is that Sutton was eliminating blackmailers. That could have been acheived with just the throat cuts. Why the escalating eviscerations? Was it his intention to eviscerate Stride, but was interupted? Wouldn't MJK have been alerted to his intentions and fled to escape him? Do you know if Sutton was a Mason?

Cheers, George

[DJA]

Hi George,
I've posted this before.
It is the initial infection points for Rheumatic Fever before the strep gets into the small intestine,heart,kidneys,etc.
Compare .....


Ciao,

Dave.

[DJA]

Hi Dave,

So you are suggesting that she was strangled, the eye cuts performed and her body dumped via the gate in the yard? What about the eviscerations? If Sutton was acting alone wouldn't he have left a trail trying to carry the body by himself, or do you think that that part took place in the Square?

With regard to the Stride murder, do you see Sutton in the role of BSMan, Pipeman, Parcelman or an unseen hidden assailant?

Cheers, George

Hi George,

I am suggesting that the cholesterol around the eyes required light and a small scalpel for their removal.

Sutton waited until Constable Watkin passed at 1.30am before taking Eddowes into Mitre Square proper for 'evisceration",a remarkable effort given the time frame.

I have no doubt Sutton was watching proceedings below from the first floor window.He would have been quite at home in the Jewish club.
The cachous were medication for Stride's hereditary hemorrhagic telanggiectasia,a specialty of Sutton's.
He had arranged,no doubt through Eddowes,to meet Stride in the alley.Eddowes was locked up,he was likely expecting her.
After BS Man,Stride's protector had finally left,he was out the front door offering her the medication from his open hand.She picked them up with finger and thumb as he struck.

Ciao,

Dave.

[GBinOz]

Hi George,

My money is on Eddowes being strangled in 6 Mitre Street after she told Jack that she replied to the police that her name was "nothing".

The two cholesterol removals around her eyes were actually a result of research conducted by Gull and Sutton.That would have been done indoors with a small scalpel before she was taken into Mitre Square between police beats.

Everything points to Henry Gawen Sutton being Jack the Ripper.
All the mutilations relate to Eddowes being his patient,along with Nichols,since December 1867.

Hi Dave,

So you are suggesting that she was strangled, the eye cuts performed and her body dumped via the gate in the yard? What about the eviscerations? If Sutton was acting alone wouldn't he have left a trail trying to carry the body by himself, or do you think that that part took place in the Square?

With regard to the Stride murder, do you see Sutton in the role of BSMan, Pipeman, Parcelman or an unseen hidden assailant?

Cheers, George

[DJA]

The problem with all this DJA is that youve offered a great "story" along the lines of the Royal Conspiracy, but the details are mostly of your own creation so far.

The facts I have continually supplied have nothing to do with "The Royal Conspiracy".

The cuts inflicted on Eddowes are consistent with her Rheumatic Fever from December 1867.The strep has also invaded her kidneys.

She also seems to have had cancer.

Unlike the piffle you post on Stride's murder,these are historical medical facts.

[Michael W Richards]

Hi George,

My money is on Eddowes being strangled in 6 Mitre Street after she told Jack that she replied to the police that her name was "nothing".

The two cholesterol removals around her eyes were actually a result of research conducted by Gull and Sutton.That would have been done indoors with a small scalpel before she was taken into Mitre Square between police beats.

Everything points to Henry Gawen Sutton being Jack the Ripper.
All the mutilations relate to Eddowes being his patient,along with Nichols,since December 1867.

The problem with all this DJA is that youve offered a great "story" along the lines of the Royal Conspiracy, but the details are mostly of your own creation so far.

[Meet Ze Monster]

Unfortunately I don't think any of the reports mention blood in the eyes. However it does mention slight laceration to the tongue in Dr L's statement re:Polly

Hmmm, could be an injury caused by the tongue pushing through the teeth during strangulation?

[DJA]

Hi Dave,

OK, I'll bite. Where and when were the eye mutilations performed and how was the body transported to Mitre Square without the spilling of blood and entrails?

Cheers, George

Hi George,

My money is on Eddowes being strangled in 6 Mitre Street after she told Jack that she replied to the police that her name was "nothing".

The two cholesterol removals around her eyes were actually a result of research conducted by Gull and Sutton.That would have been done indoors with a small scalpel before she was taken into Mitre Square between police beats.

Everything points to Henry Gawen Sutton being Jack the Ripper.
All the mutilations relate to Eddowes being his patient,along with Nichols,since December 1867.

[GBinOz]

Eddowes' "eye mutilations" would have been performed indoors with a small scalpel and lighting.

Hi Dave,

OK, I'll bite. Where and when were the eye mutilations performed and how was the body transported to Mitre Square without the spilling of blood and entrails?

Cheers, George

[Losmandris]

I have to agree with Greenway here. I believe they were rendered unconscious first before being laid on the ground. Where their throats were cut. It may not have been intentional but a couple of the victims, Chapman for example were strangled to death rather than unconscious. This could have been a result of them really struggling or just over zealousness on behalf of the murderer.

[Michael W Richards]

I was discussing both the Eddowes and MJK murders with a friend recently who was adamant that all of the c5 excluding Stride were strangled. I always believed that Stride, Eddowes and MJK were not strangled because I do not recall seeing anything suggesting this in the source book. I believe the wording used for example in the Eddowes case was no superficial bruises.

Anyone care to clarify this?

Elizabeth Stride had her scarf twisted tightly and the cut on her throat corresponded to the line of the scarf. So, she was grabbed by the scarf and it was twisted as he cut her. That might constitute choking. Not necessarily strangulation.

[Greenway]

A Practical illustration:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJeEPzYctMs

[Greenway]

Thanks for your input. Chapman was strangled because it is mentioned in the reports but the other killings cite no mention of bruising around the neck although Nichols was examined by Dr L and he does appear to have a bit of a bad rep?
I would expect their to be obvious bruising because according to author Scott Andrew Selby at least 11lb of pressure is needed against the carotid artery for 10 seconds to render the victim unconscious. If pressure is released immediately, the person will regain consciousness, and only after 50 seconds of continued oxygen deprivation will they be likely to die.
I agree with you that it makes sense that he dropped the strangulation aspect to give him more time to mutilate.

An effective strangulation would render someone unconscious in 5-10 seconds (depending on health/fitness). If performed 'correctly' with the arm, the pressure compresses the whole neck and doesn't leave any marking or bruising (unlike ligature, bar or hands). Once the pressure is released the victim will remain unconscious for around 5 seconds before 'waking up' over the course of another 5-10 seconds.

I don't think the marks on the victims 'prove' this method was used by any means. But they are consistent with the killer using (discovering?) and 'refining' this technique through the course of the attacks.

The advantage is that the victim can be taken completely by surprise, with an arm around the neck from behind. The victim is incapable of making a sound or offering any resistance, and after 5 or so seconds the murderer can lower his victim to the floor and cut her throat while she is still unconscious. I'm not aware of any evidence that the women were thrown or violently forced to the ground. The MO seems to be to cut their throats whilst they were on the ground. I would think it's very hard to force a woman to lie on the ground and then cut her throat without leaving marks on elbows, knees, hands etc, and without her making a sound, if she is conscious and struggling.

[MrTwibbs]

The reason I believe that Nichols was strangled first was due to the very low amount of blood. Some speculate the killer may have used a chord or such item to strangle rather than his hands. This would reduce bruising. I think the key to the answer is in the condition of the eyes. If the reports give details on the eyes displaying broken blood vessels then strangulation would be doubtless.

Unfortunately I don't think any of the reports mention blood in the eyes. However it does mention slight laceration to the tongue in Dr L's statement re:Polly

[Meet Ze Monster]

Thanks for your input. Chapman was strangled because it is mentioned in the reports but the other killings cite no mention of bruising around the neck although Nichols was examined by Dr L and he does appear to have a bit of a bad rep?
I would expect their to be obvious bruising because according to author Scott Andrew Selby at least 11lb of pressure is needed against the carotid artery for 10 seconds to render the victim unconscious. If pressure is released immediately, the person will regain consciousness, and only after 50 seconds of continued oxygen deprivation will they be likely to die.
I agree with you that it makes sense that he dropped the strangulation aspect to give him more time to mutilate.

The reason I believe that Nichols was strangled first was due to the very low amount of blood. Some speculate the killer may have used a chord or such item to strangle rather than his hands. This would reduce bruising. I think the key to the answer is in the condition of the eyes. If the reports give details on the eyes displaying broken blood vessels then strangulation would be doubtless.