Eddowes Pawn Ticket/Finances (moved from another thread)

[lynn cates]

point

Hello Mike. Thanks.

Frequently, terrorism has a point. The dynamite outrages all had definite points. How would Kate have assessed Polly and Annie's deaths with respect to point?

"I believe she uses the variations because she is attempting to be clever."

In my mind, the clever one is the one who survives. (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[Michael W Richards]

JANE KELLY, #6 DORSET STREET, LONDON
MARY ANN KELLY, FASHION STREET, LONDON

When you look at the 2 together, in their given sequence, and consider the extremely unusual and unique circumstances that link Catharine to a woman named Mary Jane Kelly of #26 Dorset Street, London,..as consecutive murders by one assumed killer..and you have a common local hangout like Crossingham's directly across the street from Mary, and how you have a mutual background involving mingling with the local Irish community,...... you have to wonder how likely this extremely odd coincidence could occur, as opposed to it being a contrived occurrence.

I suppose put simply my "spidey senses" are tingling. I believe she used the names purposefully, why, I can only speculate at this point.

Cheers Lynn

[Michael W Richards]

Hello Mike. Thanks.

Frequently, terrorism has a point. The dynamite outrages all had definite points. How would Kate have assessed Polly and Annie's deaths with respect to point?

"I believe she uses the variations because she is attempting to be clever."

In my mind, the clever one is the one who survives. (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

Perhaps both Polly and Annie were at some point Police informants. With the Parnell Commission looking to expose the most senior Irish member of Parliament of complicity in political murders, whose to say a mandate to silence rogue witnesses was'nt under way?

The money that was being raised, by both Irish radicals and undercover Policemen make the stakes very high indeed.

On that last point, I didnt say she was clever, just that she was trying to be.

All the best LC

[lynn cates]

source

Hello Mike. Thanks. Can you direct me to the source for her use of "Mary Kelly"?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

Parnell Commission

Hello (again) Mike. Thanks.

Yes, the Parnell Commission may prove to be important here.

Difficult, however, to see poor Kate involved in that.

Cheers.
LC

[Michael W Richards]

Hello Mike. Thanks. Can you direct me to the source for her use of "Mary Kelly"?

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn,

She gives the name to Hutt at around 12:55pm as she is being discharged, from the Times of Oct 3rd:

"It appears that on Saturday night a woman - who gave the name of Mary Anne Kelly, and her address as No. 6, Fashion-street, Spitalfields - was taken, intoxicated, to the Bishopsgate-street police-station. It is customary in such cases for a constable who may be on duty at the station to visit at frequent intervals the person detained, to see how he or she may be progressing. The woman in question was attended to in this manner on Saturday night by Reserve Constable Hutt, who noticed that she had on a pair of men's boots, and at the same time he observed the bonnet which she was wearing as well as her attire generally. Having become sufficiently sober to be discharged, the woman was liberated on Sunday morning at 1 o'clock, when she stated that she was afraid to go home, it was understood, on account of her husband. Hutt saw her leave the station, and observed that, instead of going in the direction of Spitalfields, she turned to the left, towards Houndsditch, and consequently in the direction of Mitre-square. After the examination of the body of the murdered woman in the City mortuary in Golden-lane the boots and bonnet were left there with the keeper, the rest of the clothing being taken to the police-station. On going to the mortuary Hutt saw the boots and bonnet, and identified them as belonging to the woman who had been detained at the police-station."

Cheers Lynn

[lynn cates]

Ann

Hello Mike. Thanks. I thought you had said just Mary Kelly. I see now that it is the bold part.

It would seem plausible if not for the Ann(e). hard for me to connect Kate and "MJK."

Cheers.
LC

[Jon Guy]

Hi Michael

There are a great many things one might consider if the premise that the choice of aliases reveals Kate's knowledge of a Mary Jane Kelly living on Dorset, not the least of which is might Kate have been murdered due to a misidentification for one Mary Kelly?

If the killer thought he was killing Mary Kelly of Dorset, and if she is given any copies of her arrest information when she was released, he might be convinced by the pawn ticket name and her arrest name that he had the right Dorset Street woman, ... though she coyly had mixed up some details.

Might Kate have been selling information about this Mary Jane Kelly, and she made a figurative bread crumb trail for someone to follow if she disappeared?

So, the killer is chasing down these clues in Aldgate and kills Eddowes by mistake whereas his intended target, the real Mary Kelly, is fast asleep at home in Millers Court. Don`t you think the killer would have tried her home address first?

[Michael W Richards]

Hi Michael


So, the killer is chasing down these clues in Aldgate and kills Eddowes by mistake whereas his intended target, the real Mary Kelly, is fast asleep at home in Millers Court. Don`t you think the killer would have tried her home address first?

The way I see this Jon is that if someone checked up on the woman who was hammered and jailed around 8:30, he would have no idea who she was at that time. She said her name was "nothing" when she was checked in. But when she is released, she is released as Mary Kelly, with a pawn ticket on her that says Jane Kelly of Dorset Street.

How do we know where the "real" Mary Kelly was on that night by the way?

Do I think her killer might have misidentified her? Not really, it is a possibility though. I lean towards a silencing of someone with information that could have caused her killer great distress if made public.

Cheers Jon

[Michael W Richards]

Hello Mike. Thanks. I thought you had said just Mary Kelly. I see now that it is the bold part.

It would seem plausible if not for the Ann(e). hard for me to connect Kate and "MJK."

Cheers.
LC

Well Lynn, they were both killed by someone assumed to have had less skill and knowledge than the person who killed the priors, they have that in common...they both have facial mutilations, they both seem to have spent less time out soliciting than Polly or Annie or even Liz, its likely they both have Irish connections, its factual that at that time being a member of any Irish self rule faction was dangerous due to the ongoing commission hearings, and its a fact that unfortunates were used as informants by both the Police and the criminals,.... there is some tenuous basis for the assumption they might have known of each other.

Again though, is it really feasible to assume that Kates use of the names and addresses in her last 2 aliases is purely coincidental?

Mary Jane Kelly of _6 Dorset Street?

If a victim of any multiple killer used aliases that were in effect almost the exact name and address of the next victim assumed to be by the same killer I would feel the same. Its just too much of a long shot to assume it was mere coincidence.

You may not like my suggestions but surely you dont dispute the logic.

Cheers Lynn

[lynn cates]

complexity

Hello Mike. Thanks.

"Again though, is it really feasible to assume that Kates use of the names and addresses in her last 2 aliases is purely coincidental?"

It would depend the complexity of either. John Smith--not remarkable; Ethel Aardvark (couldn't resist), quite.

As for #6, she also gave Fashion Street. Her sister lived at a #6. Fashion and Dorset were both close by.

Cheers.
LC

[Jon Guy]

Hi Michael

If we were Fenian assassins and had orders to kill Mary Kelly we would both be looking for a 26 yr old woman who lives at 13 Millers Court, Dorset St, well, I would ;-)

To kill a 46 yr old woman in Aldgate would be dumb, even for a Fenian assassin.

How do we know where the "real" Mary Kelly was on that night by the way?

We know she was at 13 Millers Court, Dorset St. We know Barnett had recently lost his job and Kelly had started to walk the streets again.
In fact, the old chestnut of a killer looking for Kelly is silly really as she was at home the whole time, and probably the easiest of the victims to locate.

[Michael W Richards]

Hi Jon,

Youve stated twice now that we know that Mary Kelly was at home on the night of the Double Event, I really have to ask for a source for that please.

As to a "Fenian Assassin", I said nothing of the sort. I suggested that some one or some parties might have cause to silence Kate and that they may have misidentified her based on her pawn ticket and name left with Hutt. Ive also suggested that the aliases combined, unless a miraculously coincidental occurrence, contain 26 of 27 characters needed to spell out Mary Jane Kelly, 26 Dorset Street.

Why not Kate Kelly? Ann Kelly? Kate Conway, Catharine Kelly, Ann Conway...or any number of names available to her without creating one out of thin air? Why Jane and then Mary...and both still Kelly's? Why the number 6 in both addresses? Of all the streets and lanes and alleys in the area, why did she choose to give 2 streets that were either the home address, or in very close proximity, to a real Mary Kelly of 26 Dorset Street? Why Dorset Street? If she is protecting her reputation by giving a fake name and address why choose one of the worst streets in the East End at the time?

Considering the small number of women killed relative to the number available, the less than 1 square mile all the victims were killed within, and the odds that she would pick these names and addresses coincidentally...I personally believe its far more likely she knew someone by that name on that street. She omitted the key facts...the fact that it was #26, not number 6, and the fact she was actually in Millers Court behind #26...make it appear as if she didnt want to direct these people to someones door with these aliases. Maybe she wanted this person to be found if something happened to Kate herself.

Listen...anytime anyone chooses an alias we have to ask ourselves why....like the petty crooks and major crooks of the time, many aliases were assumed by many people. For their own safety. To protect their real families and friends. To evade detection for some bad deed or crime. To start a fresh new life. Lots of reasons.

What was Kates...and why did these aliases include specific details of someone who would be killed after her...by the same person, or so assumed.

Cheers

[Jon Guy]

Hi Michael

Youve stated twice now that we know that Mary Kelly was at home on the night of the Double Event, I really have to ask for a source for that please.

The sources are Joseph Barnett and John McCarthy, who gave the police all the recent history on Kelly. She was not away. If she had left 13 Millers Court during the murders it would have been stated.

As to a "Fenian Assassin", I said nothing of the sort. I suggested that some one or some parties might have cause to silence Kate and that they may have misidentified her based on her pawn ticket and name left with Hutt. Ive also suggested that the aliases combined, unless a miraculously coincidental occurrence, contain 26 of 27 characters needed to spell out Mary Jane Kelly, 26 Dorset Street.

Miraculous coincidence? Do you know how many Mary Anne`s, Kelly`s and Mary Ann Kelly`s there were out there. Check out the research part of this thread. Even for a cheap paperback these "coincidences" don`t amount to much, and Kelly lived at 13 Millers Court which was owned by McCarthy at his address of 27 Dorset St received the mail for the Court

Why not Kate Kelly? Ann Kelly? Kate Conway, Catharine Kelly, Ann Conway...or any number of names available to her without creating one out of thin air? Why Jane and then Mary...and both still Kelly's? .

Why Kelly? Because her partner was called Kelly. She did use to call herself Kate Conway too, after her then partner Mr Conway, and if she was living with me or you she would have called herself Kate Guy or Kate Richards.

Listen...anytime anyone chooses an alias we have to ask ourselves why....like the petty crooks and major crooks of the time, many aliases were assumed by many people. For their own safety. To protect their real families and friends. To evade detection for some bad deed or crime. To start a fresh new life. Lots of reasons.

She used a different christian name on a pawn ticket, Michael.

[curious4]

Walking the streets or street-walking?

Hello all,

In the face (probably) of much opposition I maintain that there is no evidence that Kate was a prostitute. The evidence of the lodging house keeper was that she had never known her be intimate with anyone but Kelly and it is a long way to walk from London to Maidstone to earn money hopping - I think an habitual prostitute would have taken the easy option. Is there any record of her being arrested for soliciting?

I think the Kelly's evidence at the inquest led to a misunderstanding, when asked if she was a prostitute he denied it (street walking), but said that with no money she would be forced to walk the streets - as she would have been, anyone sitting down and falling asleep would have immediately woken by the police and told to move on, it being against the law to sleep on the streets at night.

"She was poor, but she was honest" - well, on the whole, anyway!

Best wishes,
C4