Eddowes Pawn Ticket/Finances (moved from another thread)

[lynn cates]

timing

Hello C4.

"I maintain that there is no evidence that Kate was a prostitute."

A bit strong. What about, "I maintain that there is no evidence that Kate was prostituting when killed"?

Cheers.
LC

[curious4]

Kate

Hello Lynn,

Splitting hairs perhaps? If she wasn't a prostitute, she wouldn't have been soliciting on the night she was killed. Unless, of course, she decided to take up the oldest profession on just that particular night lol. Is there though? Evidence that she did prostitute herself? Open to being disproved as per usual.

What I really wanted to highlight was the difference in meaning attached to the expression between the middle and lower classes. To the middle classes "walking the streets" had only one meaning, but to the homeless it also meant literally walking the streets all night.

All good wishes,
C4

[lynn cates]

budgetary constraint

Hello C4. Thanks.

I am with you on the "walking all night" interpretation.

I have no hard evidence pro or con for Kate's part time jobs. If she never did, then she might be exceptional. Not an uncommon way to make ends meet (poor choice of words? heh-heh).

Cheers.
LC

[curious4]

Hello Lynn,

Very good! lol

Cheers,
C4

[Michael W Richards]

Hi Jon,

On your points below;

[QUOTE=Jon Guy;251640]

The sources are Joseph Barnett and John McCarthy, who gave the police all the recent history on Kelly. She was not away. If she had left 13 Millers Court during the murders it would have been stated.

So I assume what you meant to say was that Mary Kelly lived at 13 Millers Court at the time of the Eddowes murder and she was not out of town. Thats not the same as whats been said...which is that Mary was home on that night....something we of course do NOT know.

Miraculous coincidence? Do you know how many Mary Anne`s, Kelly`s and Mary Ann Kelly`s there were out there. Check out the research part of this thread. Even for a cheap paperback these "coincidences" don`t amount to much, and Kelly lived at 13 Millers Court which was owned by McCarthy at his address of 27 Dorset St received the mail for the Court .


Yeah... I do have an idea of how many people claimed to have that name, although I only know of 1 that was recorded as living at 26 Dorset Street, and I only know of 1 Mary Jane Kelly there.

Why Kelly? Because her partner was called Kelly. She did use to call herself Kate Conway too, after her then partner Mr Conway, and if she was living with me or you she would have called herself Kate Guy or Kate Richards.

Then why not Kate Kelly? Why the Jane and Mary given names? Why not Kate Conway for that matter, if she is really not that uptight about anyone recognizing her as someone other than Catherine Eddowes, then why not use a name that would be something she might actually have used...like a Mrs John Kelly, or Kate Conway? And why of all the streets in the East End would she place this fictitious person on the toughest meanest street in the area?

She used a different christian name on a pawn ticket, Michael.

People get these names wrong all the time, but she was Jane Kelly of #6 Dorset Street on the pawn ticket, and she was Mary Ann Kelly of #6 Fashion Street with Hutt at the station.

The only 2 aspects of those 2 aliases that dont belong to a person known as Mary Jane Kelly of 26 Dorset Street....which had a Millers Court attached to it,...was the Fashion Street address and the name Ann.

The 2 aliases contain, as Ive said, 26 of a total of 27 characters in MJK's name and address.

To not even acknowledge its a very odd thing to have one victim provide almost the entire name and address of the following victim as aliases in her last 24 hours...when the 2 women are supposedly dispatched by the same killer....is just resisting logic Jon.

Best regards

[Michael W Richards]

Hi again,

On this issue of possible victim linkage, exhibited by Kates use of her last 2 known aliases which in effect provide Mary Jane Kellys known name and address, the subsequent victim of an assumed single killer,..

Does anyone think that the police checked on that pawn ticket name and address? Or the Fashion Street one? Is it feasible that someone checking that pawn name and address.. while making inquiries thereabouts regarding a Jane Kelly on Dorset Street, since Kate is'nt ID'd right away, might discover that a Mary Jane Kelly did in fact live up the street a bit? Mary lived in the area, was seen out and about on the streets, she had friends who had friends...hell, even Carrie Maxwell seems to know about her......point being, could that pawn ticket have led the police to a Mary Jane Kelly on Dorset Street as a result of general inquiries on the matter?

My supposition is yes. Not beyond the realm of probabilities at all.

Therefore, it can be said with at least some hope for accuracy that the alias Kate used on the Friday night could have led someone to the woman we know as Mary Jane Kelly.

Is that perspective clarifying my concerns about this Mary Jane Kelly of _26 Dorset Street mere coincidence?

All the best

[Jon Guy]

Hi Michael

So I assume what you meant to say was that Mary Kelly lived at 13 Millers Court at the time of the Eddowes murder and she was not out of town. Thats not the same as whats been said...which is that Mary was home on that night....something we of course do NOT know.

Yes, that`s correct. The assassin may have had to wait an hour or two for her to get home but that`s where she was on Sept 30th.

Yeah... I do have an idea of how many people claimed to have that name, although I only know of 1 that was recorded as living at 26 Dorset Street, and I only know of 1 Mary Jane Kelly there.

Absolutely,and that`s where she could be found.

Then why not Kate Kelly? Why the Jane and Mary given names? Why not Kate Conway for that matter, if she is really not that uptight about anyone recognizing her as someone other than Catherine Eddowes, then why not use a name that would be something she might actually have used...like a Mrs John Kelly, or Kate Conway? And why of all the streets in the East End would she place this fictitious person on the toughest meanest street in the area?

Because that`s the way they were in 1888 Spitalfields. Even the most wholesome person was a bit dodgy (in the nicest sense of the word). It wasn`t that important to have the correct name on a pawn ticket, and considering one could be sent to jail for stealing boots why even risk putting your correct name on the ticket.

To not even acknowledge its a very odd thing to have one victim provide almost the entire name and address of the following victim as aliases in her last 24 hours...when the 2 women are supposedly dispatched by the same killer....is just resisting logic Jon.

I`ll concede that it would have been noteworthy if Eddowes had given the name Mary Ann Mangrove Throat-Warbler, and a month later a Jane Mangrove Throat-Warbler was found slaughtered.

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Jon

But then, surely we'd be asking if it was a coincidence that Mary Jane Raymond Luxury Yacht had been killed?

All the best

Dave

[Jon Guy]

Depends on how they pronounced Luxury Yacht, Dave.

[Michael W Richards]

I`ll concede that it would have been noteworthy if Eddowes had given the name Mary Ann Mangrove Throat-Warbler, and a month later a Jane Mangrove Throat-Warbler was found slaughtered.

Hi Jon,

I believe that is precisely what we are talking about here, the circumstances being that approx 95% of Marys complete name and address were contained within 2 separate documents written 24 hours apart. Although, as Ive suggested, I believe it would have been very easy to have heard of a Mary Jane, not Jane, Kelly..living just up the street in the back of #26, when inquiring at #6 about a Jane Kelly of Dorset Street. Mary was a resident of the street, not a transient. She would be known, at least on that street, by the other residents.

Youre contention seems to be that there were so many Mary Jane Kelly's listed on the records for the period that Kate could have thrown a stone in any direction and beaned one. The facts are that there were not many Mary Jane Kellys on the records at that time in London, and perhaps only one that lived in the less than a single square mile that the Ripper murders occurred within, and remarkably this MJK becomes the very next victim assumed to have been killed by Saucy Jack. The same SJ that is assumed to have killed Catharine Eddowes/Jane/ Mary Kelly/ of #6 Dorset/Fashion Street on Double Event night.

To say its a coincidence I believe understates the obvious, and I realize that to say its evidence that Kate at least knew of Mary overstates what can be said. Its damn weird....and in damn weird investigations one has to look harder at the evidence.

Cheers Jon

[curious]

Speaking of Coincidence

To say its a coincidence I believe understates the obvious,

Cheers Jon

There's another huge coincidence associated with Eddowes that I've never seen discussed:

Kidney

One was taken from her body when previous attacks had focused on a different organ.

Strange, isn't it, that the woman killed on the same night had just been living with a "Kidney"?

That a "kidney" would play such a large role in the stories of both women seems -- what, is weird, the right word?

curious

[Michael W Richards]

There's another huge coincidence associated with Eddowes that I've never seen discussed:

Kidney

One was taken from her body when previous attacks had focused on a different organ.

Strange, isn't it, that the woman killed on the same night had just been living with a "Kidney"?

That a "kidney" would play such a large role in the stories of both women seems -- what, is weird, the right word?

curious

I think its appropriate,...not damn weird cause it could easily be one of those things. But the mind wanders without cause sometimes... and a thought that the kidney might have been a message to Kidney is interesting.

Its the only act that one can argue the skill and technique used in Kates murder...its the only thing he does, if intentionally, quite well. The rest of the cutting seems amateurish compared with the Chapman murder.

Cheers curious

[curious]

I think its appropriate,...not damn weird cause it could easily be one of those things. But the mind wanders without cause sometimes... and a thought that the kidney might have been a message to Kidney is interesting.

Its the only act that one can argue the skill and technique used in Kates murder...its the only thing he does, if intentionally, quite well. The rest of the cutting seems amateurish compared with the Chapman murder.

Cheers curious

Hi, Michael,

Somehow my mind is still swirling around playing the "Name" game.

Eddowes, who lived with John Kelly, used the name of Kelly on the day she was killed. Then the next victim was a Kelly.

Wonder if Stride, who lived with Michael Kidney, was ever known as Elizabeth Kidney?

Then a kidney was removed from the victim killed within minutes of Elizabeth's murder.

If both murders were by the same hand, how strange is it that a kidney was definitely targeted in the second murder minutes after a woman, perhaps occasionally known as Kidney, was killed?

Coincidence, or some strange premeditated game?

Just strange. I don't see any sense in it, just peculiar.

curious

[Wickerman]

Coincidence, or some strange premeditated game?

Just strange. I don't see any sense in it, just peculiar.

curious

So you had not also noticed that Mary Kelly of Millers Court had also married a man named Davis, then the next Whitechapel murder, one Rose Mylett had also been known as Lizzie Davis.

And so it goes... coincidences abound throughout this case.

Regards, Jon S.

[Michael W Richards]

So you had not also noticed that Mary Kelly of Millers Court had also married a man named Davis, then the next Whitechapel murder, one Rose Mylett had also been known as Lizzie Davis.

And so it goes... coincidences abound throughout this case.

Regards, Jon S.

We are told Mary married a collier named Davies, we cant say that she did yet. But I agree with you in principal, if you look for surname overlap in some of these cases you will find it. Its not the commonality of certain names that bugs me with Kate, its the specificity.

If Kate chose to use Jane Kelly of any street but Dorset, if she didnt use the #6 twice, and if she didnt die while having given her name as Mary Kelly... just over 1/2 hour before her murder, I wouldnt give this much thought.

But when added to the lies told by John Kelly about their last 24 hours, the lies she told regarding her name and address, the fact that she gets hammered without any known source of money before 8pm, and the fact that she heads in the opposite direction of where Kelly is staying after her release from Jail... all the while claiming to Hutt that she is in trouble at home for this incarceration,...thats when I get interested in her choices for aliases.

The last 24 hours of Kates life are, as yet, not completely understood. And things take place that seem out of character and behavior based on our knowledge of her from JK and others. That to me indicates something was going on that we do not know about.

Best regards