Eddowes Pawn Ticket/Finances (moved from another thread)

[Jon Guy]

Hi Lynn

I was wondering whether it was Eddowes herself who may have stolen the boots as she was the one turned out of the Casual Ward (where men`s boots would be removed).

[lynn cates]

oops

Hello Jon. Thanks.

Could be. But would her "plunder" not be recouped?

I notice that we are a bit off topic. Perhaps this could be moved to a new thread?

Cheers.
LC

[curious]

What if the pawnbroker knew you by your name so the pawn ticket could not be passed onto someone else to redeem.

Hi, Jon,
I'm being quite slow today. I don't understand this, would you please explain?

Thank you,

curious

[Jon Guy]

Hi Curious

I'm being quite slow today. I don't understand this, would you please explain?

Don`t worry, I was been even slower yesterday, as the second option I offered is quite silly.

I was originally thinking that as pawn tickets were sometimes given to other people to redeem (Emily Birrell and possibly Maria Harvey) a different name is used in case the pawn broker recognises the redeemer of the ticket, and the name on the ticket doesn`t match the face. But it has since dawned on me that if Jones the Pawn knew Eddowes he would have noted that the name on the ticket, Jane Kelly wasn`t her name.

Unless, Jones the Pawn knew John Kelly and Kate Eddowes but accepted the fact that Eddowes was actually called Kelly, after her man.

Err.. hope that`s clarified things ...

[curious]

Err.. hope that`s clarified things ...

Very much. I feel considerably better.

Thanks, Jon.

Only now we have to wonder: what in the world was the point of pawning something in a different name?

What possible benefit could that be?

[lynn cates]

Jones

Hello Jon. "Anne" Kelly perhaps?

You make a good point about Jones. In "The Times" 2 October, Jones had been questioned about the tickets but could not link them to Kate--he could not recognise her. In his other testimonies for the police, he seemed able to pin faces to tickets.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

yup

Hello Velma.

"Only now we have to wonder: what in the world was the point of pawning something in a different name?

What possible benefit could that be?"

Exactly.

Cheers.
LC

[Jon Guy]

Hi Lynn

"Anne" Kelly perhaps?

Possibly. Was not John Kelly`s estranged wife called Mary Ann Kelly?
I may be drifting into silliness once again here but didn`t John Kelly`s ex still live on Flower and Dean St?
Perhaps Eddowes was been a tad naughty and used his ex`s name.

You make a good point about Jones. In "The Times" 2 October, Jones had been questioned about the tickets but could not link them to Kate--he could not recognise her. In his other testimonies for the police, he seemed able to pin faces to tickets.

Joseph Jones seems to have made many appearances at the Old Bailey, and yes, he is asked to identify a few of the people in the dock.

I wonder if anyone has done an article on the Whitechapel pawn brokers, who they were and where. Specifically, a close look at Joseph Jones` appearances at the Old Bailey would be interesting.
Are you aware of any articles? I`m pretty sure Dave Protohistorian did a map showing the pawn brokers in the area.

[lynn cates]

this, that, other

Hello Jon. Thanks.

"Possibly. Was not John Kelly`s estranged wife called Mary Ann Kelly?"

I was not aware of such. Did, however, locate a Mary Anne Kelly within a mile or so of Cooney's.

"I may be drifting into silliness once again here but didn`t John Kelly`s ex still live on Flower and Dean St?"

Not aware of that one--but would like to know more.

"Perhaps Eddowes was been a tad naughty and used his ex`s name."

Good speculation. After all, I daresay her "#6 Fashion st" address derived in part from her sister's address.

"I wonder if anyone has done an article on the Whitechapel pawn brokers, who they were and where. Specifically, a close look at Joseph Jones` appearances at the Old Bailey would be interesting.
Are you aware of any articles?"

Funny you should ask that. I just finished a large essay on "Kate's Final Hours." It included Jones and some of his testimony, etc. It was submitted to "New Independent Review." Hope there are more issues of that journal to come.

Cheers.
LC

[Bridewell]

You make a good point about Jones. In "The Times" 2 October, Jones had been questioned about the tickets but could not link them to Kate--he could not recognise her. In his other testimonies for the police, he seemed able to pin faces to tickets.

Might this indicate that the boots were not in fact pawned by Eddowes at all and, therefore, that the pawn ticket itself had been stolen?

[Jon Guy]

Might this indicate that the boots were not in fact pawned by Eddowes at all and, therefore, that the pawn ticket itself had been stolen?

That may explain why the ticket is dated 28/9 yet John Kelly said it was pawned on Sat morning 29/9.

[lynn cates]

good

Hello Colin. Now you're talking. But how account for John's story?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

muddled

Hello Jon. Yes, indeed. But recall John then let his story blur to "Friday night or Saturday morning." All "muddled up" from Kate's death. In fact, he was so concerned that he waited until Tuesday to go to the station.

Cheers.
LC

[Jon Guy]

Hi Lynn

"Possibly. Was not John Kelly`s estranged wife called Mary Ann Kelly?"

I was not aware of such. Did, however, locate a Mary Anne Kelly within a mile or so of Cooney's.

"I may be drifting into silliness once again here but didn`t John Kelly`s ex still live on Flower and Dean St?"

Not aware of that one--but would like to know more.

I honestly don`t know where I`ve seen it (so treat with caution) but I`m sure I`ve read that Kelly`s ex missus was called Mary Ann Kelly.
Anyway, in the Whitechapel Infirmary records for 7th April, 1888 (courtesy of Messrs Flynn and Scott) there is a 51 yr old Mary Ann Kelly, wife of John Kelly, occupation hawker, living at 14 Flower and Dean St- reason for admittance given as black eye.

Funny you should ask that. I just finished a large essay on "Kate's Final Hours." It included Jones and some of his testimony, etc. It was submitted to "New Independent Review." Hope there are more issues of that journal to come.

If I was you I`d contact Don, and if there`s nothing in the pipeline for NIR maybe send it to the Rip?

[lynn cates]

odd

Hello Jon. Thanks.

That is VERY interesting--but also odd. Why would John be listed after 7 or so years separation?

Good idea. May give that a go.

Cheers.
LC