Why Mutilate The Nose Specifically?

[GregBaron]

Cutting off your nose to spite your face...

Hi Caz,

That reminds me of when I asked a vet why dogs eat grass. He said, "Because they like it."

Isn't this the same reason a dog licks something else?

Also related to the above. In a rare moment of candor, Bundy declared the following when asked by a policeman, "why Ted why?".

Answer: "Because I liked it". Perhaps Jack had the same motivation?

"Her nose annoyed me so I cut it off..."

Yeah, I think the killer may have simply wished to further humiliate and degrade the victim. Attaching a symbolic significance to the facial cuts may be a bit of a reach...Who knows, maybe he would have cut up the faces of Nichols and Chapman if time permitted? Maybe Cross and Cadosch interrupted as did Dimshits......


Greg

[Errata]

There's your reason. Thank you Don Rumbelow.

Because Bridewell is not asking every last thing about syphilis etc, he's asking why mutilate the nose. What impulse the killer acted on.

Roy

It only serves to brand her as a prostitute if it was known problem that syphilis ate noses, which it was not. Now, I could have simply typed "No you're wrong." which in fact would have been MUCH more concise. But in order to defend that statement I have to expound on the nature of syphilis. And if I'm going to do that, I might as well explain how I know what I know, and why there seems to be this persistent myth. And if I'm going to say all of that, I might as well put it out there that in matters medical, maybe ask a doctor and not a ripperologist.

Mutilating the nose to mark her as a prostitute makes as much sense as cutting off the first digits of her fingers to mark her as a prostitute. Which may work in the killers mind for some reason, but isn't going to make sense to anyone else.

Why mutilate the nose is actually incredibly simple. I've said it before. Because it sticks out. If you run a blade across the planes of the face, it hangs up on the nose. Removing the nose provides a flat canvas. It also generates a ton of blood and is the single most disfiguring cut that can be made on a human. Cut out any other facial feature and an identification can still be easily made. Humans have a habit of hammering down what sticks up. Or cutting it down.

[Tecs]

Yeah, I think the killer may have simply wished to further humiliate and degrade the victim.

Greg

I think that they are the key words.

I don't want to lower the tone, but there are certain sexual practices to do with humiliation and degradation that focus on the face. If Jack was using the knife as a substitute for his you know what, then attacking the face may have been his way of doing this.

Having gained satisfaction from this at Mitre Square, he may have gone even further in Miller's Court?

Also on this subject (apologies if anybody's mentioned this, I've not checked the whole thread) there is a legend that the singer Ian Curtis from Joy Division cut off his own nose before hanging himself. It may be a complete urban myth but it's never been denied as far as I know.

If he did, nobody has suggested why. To spite his face? Self loathing, spite oneself? Who knows?

regards,

[Abby Normal]

I'd go with the "because he liked it" explanation.

As in "my knife is so nice and sharp..and see what I can do to a womans face with it." It gave him pleasure and released an urge.

secondary motivations may have been, degradation, anger or curiosity but basically he did it because he could, and liked it.

[Michael W Richards]

Hello all,

When the act performed suggests some kind of symbolic reference, like I believe in the case of Kates nose, the more obvious the translation the better. Why take that extra time in Mitre Square with the PC bootsteps never very far away if its just some idiosyncratic impulse?

Although I did note the find Bridewell made regarding a prostitute branding of sorts interesting, in the case of Kate Eddowes that has been a very difficult argument to make. Supposedly she and John lived as virtual man and wife and they were in early each night....attested to by a landlord of theirs I believe.

She was hopping at the end of the previous week with John, and we can account for most of her evenings since she returned to London. It would seem that the only possible times that she would have prostituted herself is when she was away from John and was able to stand and walk a straight line,....which leaves what, Friday night and Saturday?

I think the nose cutting is a simple yet effective reminder to anyone in the area that people shouldnt stick their nose where it doesnt belong, in other peoples business...or they may get it cut off.

Cheers all

[Roy Corduroy]

Donald Rumbelow said the nose rotted from syphilis, which is true and was known.

Roy

[Michael W Richards]

Donald Rumbelow said the nose rotted from syphilis, which is true and was known.

Roy

Hi Roy,

But no-one claimed that Kates nose showed signs of any disease before it was found sliced almost entirely off. Not John Kelly certainly.

Cheers Roy

[Roy Corduroy]

I didn't say that, Michael. Follow back a few pages and see the quote from Don Rumbelow. That's what I was discussing. The nose. A nose. Not her nose.

Sorry if that wasn't clear.

Roy

[Michael W Richards]

I didn't say that, Michael. Follow back a few pages and see the quote from Don Rumbelow. That's what I was discussing. The nose. A nose. Not her nose.

Sorry if that wasn't clear.

Roy

Sorry if I misinterpreted the remark Roy. No offense intended.

Heres something that perhaps should be factored in when assessing why Kates killer did cut her nose....the fact that her murder is the only investigation in the Ripper series where the police assumed a getaway trail by the discovery of crime scene evidence taken from Mitre Square some 10 minutes away and discarded at the Goulston St entrance to the Model Homes. If the killer himself did that, isnt that a symbolic gesture?

And if we find a character that takes valuable time to commit symbolic acts, might we also expect to see some at the murder scene as well?

There may be plenty of evidence about the killer and the murder itself staring us right in the face...pun intended,...and we lack the proper perspective or context to understand it.

Much of the evidence in these cases I believe may fall into those voids.

Cheers Roy

[Errata]

Donald Rumbelow said the nose rotted from syphilis, which is true and was known.

Roy

So your assertion is that there is a sexually transmitted disease out there that specifically targets noses? I just want to be clear. You think that there is a disease that starts on the penis or cervix, leaves those organs intact, but then eats the nose right off the face. If someone doesn't have a nose, does it eat something else, or is that person merely spared the indignity of nose eating clap?

[GregBaron]

Misplaced symbols...

. If the killer himself did that, isnt that a symbolic gesture?

What's symbolic about dropping a piece of apron Michael?



Greg

[Roy Corduroy]

Donald Rumbelow said the nose rotted from syphilis, which is true and was known.

This is what I posted, Errata. Yes that is my assertion. There's no need for me to answer your multiple questions, because I didn't say any of the things you asked me.

Roy

[Michael W Richards]

What's symbolic about dropping a piece of apron Michael?

Greg

Hi Greg,

Even if youre of a mind to separate the apron piece and the grafitto, personally I dont, but whatever the case.. it still doesnt make sense for this to be a random act. The apron section isnt seen at that location until almost 3am, and neither you nor I would like to explain why the killer walked around for a bit with something that he wouldnt care to explain to a constable. If he casually dropped it after using it to wipe his hands,...a common assumption, then one would have to explain why he still had it on him as far as Goulston, and where it was for the missing hour and a bit.

People may argue that the apron may just have been missed by the good PC on his earlier pass, but when examining this exchange on the stand at the Inquest...;

"[Coroner] Had you been past that spot previously to your discovering the apron?
[PC Long] I passed about twenty minutes past two o'clock.
[Coroner] Are you able to say whether the apron was there then?
[PC Long] It was not.

...one must conclude that his very direct answer to the second question almost eliminates the possibility that he must have missed seeing it there. According to PC Long, the man who found it, it was not there until approx 2:55am.

That seems to me to indicate that its placement was not a casual drop on the way home fleeing from a murder scene. In fact, if one imagines it was as PC Long states, the apron was placed there.

To mislead police as to where he actually lived, or to lead police to a message he also left as a suggestion of guilt? It doesnt matter for the sake of this argument.

It appears it was set there intentionally...perhaps symbolically linking some local residents to the crime.

Cheers Greg

[Errata]

This is what I posted, Errata. Yes that is my assertion. There's no need for me to answer your multiple questions, because I didn't say any of the things you asked me.

Roy

Your assertion that Donald Rumbelow was referring to something that "is true and was known" means that you in fact believe in the dreaded nose clap. That syphilis targets the nose in violation of the laws of bacteriology and nature. That doctors are engaged in some conspiracy to fool the public into believing that their noses are as safe as any other part of the body.

My contention is that despite what Donald Rumbelow said, the fact he said it doesn't make it true. And it isn't true. And you don't have to take my word for it, ask a Gynecologist. Read Victorian medical journals. See if they sold false noses in the old Sears catalogs. There is an astonishing array of knowledge out there just waiting to be picked up. But if you choose to let it rot on the ground because it disagrees with Donald Rumbelow, you have fun.

Please Roy, save us from the Nose Clap.

[Roy Corduroy]

Whatever you mean by nose clap is your deal. Errata, you say things I didn't say then you argue with them. This could go on for awhile.

Roy