Kates missing 45 mins

[Phil Carter]

Hi Phil
Good points made

Hope you are well and staying safe?

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Hello Trevor,

Thank you for asking, I'm safely locked down, and as well as can be expected given my circs. I hope the same for you and yours.

Kindest wishes

Phil

[erobitha]

I don’t believe Kate’s missing 35-45 minutes is anything more than her simply trying to find somewhere that might be open for a late drink. I think she tried a couple of places that might have taken her in different directions and ended up near Mitre Square. Kate was a committed drinker and had sobered up. What’s the first thing any addict does when their intoxicant of choice wears off?

[Wickerman]

It's interesting Annie Phillips says this, yet she was out searching for her mother in Thrawl Street days before her murder.

It is a puzzle that her daughter didn't mention that she had been looking for her mother not too long ago. We might also wonder if Eliza did not tell her sister (Kate) that her daughter had been looking for her, and passed on the new address?

[Wickerman]

Otherwise there was London Bridge. Turning left from the police station and following that road leads more or less directly there.

That's right, keeping to the main roads especially at night may have been her first thought, crossing the river by the London Bridge, then turn left (east) may have been what she had in mind.

According to her daughter Annie Phillips, Kate didn't know her new address;...

True, but that is only her daughter guessing, as she hadn't seen her mother she wouldn't know if her mother knew her new address. It's basically in the same area for anyone walking from Bishopsgate.

[jerryd]

Tower bridge hadn't been completed in 1888, Jon. There was the Tower Subway, a pedestrian tunnel under the Thames, but I believe from memory that this cost a penny to use, a penny she probably didn't have.

Otherwise there was London Bridge. Turning left from the police station and following that road leads more or less directly there.

According to her daughter Annie Phillips, Kate didn't know her new address;

Telegraph inquest report;
"Coroner] Did your mother ever apply to you for money? - Yes.
[Coroner] When did you last see her? - Two years and one month ago.
[Coroner] Where did you live when you last saw her? - In King-street, Bermondsey.
[Coroner] Have you any brothers or sisters by Conway? - Two brothers.
[Coroner] Where are they living? - In London.
[Coroner] Did your mother know where to find either of you? - No.
[Coroner] Were your addresses purposely kept from her? - Yes.
[Coroner] To prevent her applying for money."

Hi Joshua.

It's interesting Annie Phillips says this, yet she was out searching for her mother in Thrawl Street days before her murder.

Daily News
United Kingdom
4 October 1888

Last night Eliza Gold, or Frost, the sister, who lives at 6, Thrawl-street, Spitalfields, made the following statement. She did this with difficulty, as she is suffering from a serious attack of illness consequent on the sudden discovery of her sister's shocking end. "It was this morning," she said, "when I was called to the mortuary to identify her, poor girl-I never dreamed that she would come to such an end as this, and I can't get over it. I really don't know how old she was, but I am fifty-two, and she was considerably younger. Perhaps she was about forty-two. She was born at Wolverhampton. All of us were born there. She was not married to Conway, but she went to live with him while in London. She has lived here almost all her life. Her name was Catherine Eddowes. Conway was in the army, but I don't know in what regiment. She had two or three children by him. It's rather strange-one of them, the girl that's married, came to me last week and asked me if I had seen anything of her mother. She said it was a very long time since she had seen her; but it was a long time since I had, too, and I told her so. In fact I have not seen her much oftener than once or twice since she has been with Kelly, though we lived so close together. We were not on the best of terms. I think it is only five or six years since Conway left her. Then she got in with Kelly, and I believe she has stuck to him all along. I certainly don't think she ever went out with other men, though I have told you that I did not see much of her. She was always a regular jolly sort, but she would never do anything wrong. I cannot imagine what she was doing in Mitre-square. ["]

It's also interesting that Eliza Gold stated to Annie it was a very long time since she had seen Kate when in fact, Kate has taken care of Eliza 4 or 5 weeks prior at her place in Thrawl Street.

[Damaso Marte]

exactamundo

You could ask the question "what does it matter" as well. If what we're seeking is insight into either the identity of Kate's killer or the manner in which she was killed, to what extent does it matter what she did in those 45 minutes?

Trevor is currently using the missing 45 minutes to mount an assault on the idea that the Ripper left the apron in Goulston Street. Supposing he is right, does it matter? I suppose the biggest consequence of Trevor being right is to undermine one of the key pieces of evidence for the killer being Whitechapel-based (that is, if he left the apron or GSG, he was fleeing back INTO Whitechapel). But there are still other reasons to believe the killer was from the neighborhood in which the murders occurred.

If it can be demonstrated that Kate was indeed heading to St. Botolph's, I suppose that increases the likelihood that she was soliciting that night, something that is not proven. That has all sorts of implications, especially for the debate about whether she was killed by the same person as Nichols or Chapman.

What else?

[Joshua Rogan]

I can't say what she was doing for 45 minutes, but didn't her daughter live in King St. Bermondsey, and Bermondsey is just south of the river after you cross the Tower bridge?
When she left the police station perhaps she was heading for the Tower bridge, to her daughters?

Even if her daughter had moved, (to Dilston-road, Southwark Park-road), it's more of less in the same area, and did Kate know this?

Tower bridge hadn't been completed in 1888, Jon. There was the Tower Subway, a pedestrian tunnel under the Thames, but I believe from memory that this cost a penny to use, a penny she probably didn't have.

Otherwise there was London Bridge. Turning left from the police station and following that road leads more or less directly there.

According to her daughter Annie Phillips, Kate didn't know her new address;

Telegraph inquest report;
"Coroner] Did your mother ever apply to you for money? - Yes.
[Coroner] When did you last see her? - Two years and one month ago.
[Coroner] Where did you live when you last saw her? - In King-street, Bermondsey.
[Coroner] Have you any brothers or sisters by Conway? - Two brothers.
[Coroner] Where are they living? - In London.
[Coroner] Did your mother know where to find either of you? - No.
[Coroner] Were your addresses purposely kept from her? - Yes.
[Coroner] To prevent her applying for money."

[Wickerman]

I wonder what happened to Eddowes after she left the police station, no one saw or heard anything from her in the 45 mins between leaving the police station and her being found dead. I am curious to see what the line of thinking as to where she was or where she went.

I am aware that she was seen to leave the police station and turn in the opposite direction to her lodgings, but we dont know if she suddenly realized she was going the wrong way and turned around out of sight of the police.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

I can't say what she was doing for 45 minutes, but didn't her daughter live in King St. Bermondsey, and Bermondsey is just south of the river after you cross the Tower bridge?
When she left the police station perhaps she was heading for the Tower bridge, to her daughters?

Even if her daughter had moved, (to Dilston-road, Southwark Park-road), it's more of less in the same area, and did Kate know this?

[Abby Normal]

I'm not sure why this "missing 45 minutes" for Eddowes breeds so much speculation and theorizing. It's actually one of the shorter windows of unknown time for any Ripper victim, we know far less about what Nichols, Chapman, or Kelly were doing in the hours before their deaths. And yet it's always Eddowes where people feel compelled to fill in that mere 45 minutes with all sorts of fantastical things, whether it's Eddowes having an appointment to meet with a Fenian operative, or leave the apron in Gholston Street, etc.

I have no idea what she was doing in those 45 minutes, but if I were forced to bet, I'd bet that she did something completely mundane and ordinary.

exactamundo

[Damaso Marte]

I'm not sure why this "missing 45 minutes" for Eddowes breeds so much speculation and theorizing. It's actually one of the shorter windows of unknown time for any Ripper victim, we know far less about what Nichols, Chapman, or Kelly were doing in the hours before their deaths. And yet it's always Eddowes where people feel compelled to fill in that mere 45 minutes with all sorts of fantastical things, whether it's Eddowes having an appointment to meet with a Fenian operative, or leave the apron in Gholston Street, etc.

I have no idea what she was doing in those 45 minutes, but if I were forced to bet, I'd bet that she did something completely mundane and ordinary.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I presume that we can rule out her meeting a client in the 45 mins?

Possible Tristan.

[Herlock Sholmes]

No wonder it raining, what a day, you agreeing with me and now I have to agree with you

Or she couldn't gain access due to the man on duty being fast asleep

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Id say that it has to have been a possibility. Could she have gone looking for John Kelly?

[Losmandris]

I presume that we can rule out her meeting a client in the 45 mins?

[Trevor Marriott]

At the risk of giving Trevor a coronary by agreeing with him.....I agree. When trying to work out where she went (an impossible task) somewhere familiar to her would have to be fairly high on the list I’d say. So if she had time to have got to her lodgings then back to Mitre Square then I’d say that this has to be considered a possibility but then again surely someone would have seen her there? Unless she was heading there but got sidetracked for some reason?

No wonder it raining, what a day, you agreeing with me and now I have to agree with you

Or she couldn't gain access due to the man on duty being fast asleep

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Herlock Sholmes]

Let me add something to the mix, we know that Eddowes had a partner and we know that she had lodgings to go to, so without wanting to be to presumptuous I think after her release a natural reaction not just from her but from anyone given the same set of circumstances would be to make their way home. People who I have dealt with being released from police custody usually cant wait to get home. So this must be taken into consideration, but I accept that we do not know for sure,but again i emphasize the fact that the doubt surrounding the apron piece lends the support to her being in the vicinity of GS prior to her meeting her killer.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

At the risk of giving Trevor a coronary by agreeing with him.....I agree. When trying to work out where she went (an impossible task) somewhere familiar to her would have to be fairly high on the list I’d say. So if she had time to have got to her lodgings then back to Mitre Square then I’d say that this has to be considered a possibility but then again surely someone would have seen her there? Unless she was heading there but got sidetracked for some reason?