Kates missing 45 mins

[Wickerman]

This is where I am looking.



The passage that leads to/from Rose Alley is on the other side of a building marked 'S' (shop?) but if used by police in 1888, there is a side door that opens into that passage where PC Hutt could have watched Kate exit out onto Bishopsgate St.

Query:
Since the British Library stopped using Flash, I have been unable to enlarge these maps. Is there a solution to this?
I had to use Windows to enlarge that portion and as you can see it is not really suitable.
Can anyone help?

[Wickerman]

Hi Wick.

The cells/yard are on the other side (Rose Alley). A narrow passage led out of Rose Alley to Bishopsgate Street.

Thankyou Jerry, let me ask, how do you apply what PC Hutt said about Kate's release?
I can just see there is a passage at the north end of Rose Alley that opens out onto Bishopsgate (just beyond your clip), but the street end of that passage doesn't seem to be visible from where the cells are located?

[jerryd]

Add a comment.....
Back in 2012 Monty provided a detail that doesn't come across in the statement by PC Hutt.


I think the interesting aspect of Bishopsgate Station cell layout in 1888 is the fact that the cells are set against a pub and that they are across a yard.

Eddowes had to be escorted from these cells, across the yard and back into the station.
Monty.

Here's a thought.
I wonder if the cobbled entry (presumably for carriages?) at the left of the pic had a large gate to close it off at night. Perhaps the station door to the cells was down the side of the station and the passage door was a man-door in the gate, something similar only larger, like a wicket-door in the gate across Dutfields Yard?

Hi Wick.

The cells/yard are on the other side (Rose Alley). A narrow passage led out of Rose Alley to Bishopsgate Street.

[Phil Carter]

The woman released at 1.00 am from Bishopsgate Police Station may have used an exit in Rose Alley.

Hello Simon,

Here you go...

https://www.ianvisits.co.uk/blog/2018/01/29/londons-alleys-rose-alley-ec2/

Best wishes

Phil

[Simon Wood]

The woman released at 1.00 am from Bishopsgate Police Station may have used an exit in Rose Alley.

[Trevor Marriott]

Eddowes was seen to turn in a certain direction as she left the police station,but she was not observed to have continued in that direction.She could have turned after a few yards and walked in the opposite direction.So many possibilities.

Exactly

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Simon Wood]

Bishopsgate Police Station, 1909 -

[Wickerman]

Hi Phil,
Hutt was talking about two different doors. And since Kate didn't entirely close the outer door as she left, he was able to see the direction she took.

Daily News 12 Oct
"I pushed open the swing door leading to the passage and said, "This way, missus." She passed along the passage to the outer door. I said to her, "Please push it to." She said, "All right; good night, old ****." (Laughter.) She pulled the door within half a foot in closing it, and I saw her turn to the left. "

Sorry Joshua, I duplicated your reply.

[harry]

Eddowes was seen to turn in a certain direction as she left the police station,but she was not observed to have continued in that direction.She could have turned after a few yards and walked in the opposite direction.So many possibilities.

[Trevor Marriott]

Hi Phil.

This is the full exchange:

I pushed open the swing-door leading to the passage, and said, "This way, missus." She passed along the passage to the outer door. I said to her, "Please, pull it to." She replied, "All right. Good night, old ****." (Laughter.) She pulled the door to within a foot of being close, and I saw her turn to the left.
The Coroner: That was leading towards Houndsditch? - Yes

There were two doors.

1 - The station door leading to the passage, swings outward.
2 - The end of the passage door that leads to the street, swings inward.

The way the statement reads to me, PC Hutt held the station door open until he saw Kate pull the passage door closed, with her left hand presumably, as she must have been facing left, towards Houndsditch.

Here is a pic of the Bishopsgate Station at the time, presumably we are talking about one of the two double-doors facing the street.



Add a comment.....
Back in 2012 Monty provided a detail that doesn't come across in the statement by PC Hutt.


I think the interesting aspect of Bishopsgate Station cell layout in 1888 is the fact that the cells are set against a pub and that they are across a yard.

Eddowes had to be escorted from these cells, across the yard and back into the station.
Monty.

Here's a thought.
I wonder if the cobbled entry (presumably for carriages?) at the left of the pic had a large gate to close it off at night. Perhaps the station door to the cells was down the side of the station and the passage door was a man-door in the gate, something similar only larger, like a wicket-door in the gate across Dutfields Yard?

Does it really matter which ever way she turned?She still could have made her way back to Flower and Dean street via Goulston Street in no more than 10 mins. there was more than one route she could have taken.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Wickerman]

Hello Trevor,

Here's a little, tiny goodie to consider.

When Eddowes was released from police custody, the last part of the conversation went as follows..

Hutt pushes open the swinging door of that station.
"This way missus," he says, "please pull it to."
"All right'" Kate replies, "Goodnight, old ****."

Now I'll ask a daft question. According to Hutt, he PUSHED the "swinging door" of the station, open.
But he asks Eddowes to "PULL IT TO" as she leaves.

According to the first line then, the door to the station opens outwards.
Yet in the next line, it clearly opens inwards, as Eddowes, is, asked to PULL the door to, not Push the door to, behind her.

Hi Phil.

This is the full exchange:

I pushed open the swing-door leading to the passage, and said, "This way, missus." She passed along the passage to the outer door. I said to her, "Please, pull it to." She replied, "All right. Good night, old ****." (Laughter.) She pulled the door to within a foot of being close, and I saw her turn to the left.
The Coroner: That was leading towards Houndsditch? - Yes

There were two doors.

1 - The station door leading to the passage, swings outward.
2 - The end of the passage door that leads to the street, swings inward.

The way the statement reads to me, PC Hutt held the station door open until he saw Kate pull the passage door closed, with her left hand presumably, as she must have been facing left, towards Houndsditch.

Here is a pic of the Bishopsgate Station at the time, presumably we are talking about one of the two double-doors facing the street.



Add a comment.....
Back in 2012 Monty provided a detail that doesn't come across in the statement by PC Hutt.


I think the interesting aspect of Bishopsgate Station cell layout in 1888 is the fact that the cells are set against a pub and that they are across a yard.

Eddowes had to be escorted from these cells, across the yard and back into the station.
Monty.

Here's a thought.
I wonder if the cobbled entry (presumably for carriages?) at the left of the pic had a large gate to close it off at night. Perhaps the station door to the cells was down the side of the station and the passage door was a man-door in the gate, something similar only larger, like a wicket-door in the gate across Dutfields Yard?

[Wickerman]

But does the body still continue to absorb alcohol when a person dies, To mind mind the body functions cease at the time of death.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Yes it does, things like bacteria & stomach acid cannot switch off. Though the bodies ability to create stomach acid will eventually stop. The acid that is in the stomach at the time of death continues to work on the stomach contents. Natural processes cannot switch off immediately, it takes time.

Here, there are a few comments on the subject by professionals...
https://www.quora.com/If-you-die-rig...igest-the-food

[Phil Carter]

Hi Phil,
Hutt was talking about two different doors. And since Kate didn't entirely close the outer door as she left, he was able to see the direction she took.

Daily News 12 Oct
"I pushed open the swing door leading to the passage and said, "This way, missus." She passed along the passage to the outer door. I said to her, "Please push it to." She said, "All right; good night, old ****." (Laughter.) She pulled the door within half a foot in closing it, and I saw her turn to the left. "

Thank you Joshua, most kind of you.

Whilst I see the two different doors, I don't rightly recall, I could very well be mistaken without looking it up, that Hutt mentioned the" within a half a foot in closing it, " at the inquest.
Forgive me, but I'm a little sceptical to newspaper reports.

Best wishes


Phil

[Joshua Rogan]

Hi Phil,
Hutt was talking about two different doors. And since Kate didn't entirely close the outer door as she left, he was able to see the direction she took.

Daily News 12 Oct
"I pushed open the swing door leading to the passage and said, "This way, missus." She passed along the passage to the outer door. I said to her, "Please push it to." She said, "All right; good night, old ****." (Laughter.) She pulled the door within half a foot in closing it, and I saw her turn to the left. "

[Phil Carter]

Hi Phil
I know I keep saying this but much of the witness testimony we are asked to accept as being the gospel does not stand up to close scrutiny, time and time again we see conflicts between witnesses that were never expanded upon and should have been at the inquest when the witness testimony was first given. Then to add to the confusion we then see newspaper reports of the inquests which also then print conflicting accounts not just about the inquest, but accounts that we see which then conflict with other newspaper reports which now leaves the door open for researches who have their own theory, to adopt whichever report or witness testimony that suits.

Now I am not going to lay the blame firmly at the feet of the coroner because his role was simply to ascertain the cause of death, but I believe the police having taken these statements, and then someone of a more senior rank having read them before putting them before the coroner should have identified these conflicts and ambiguities and taken steps to clear them up. This clearly did not happen and now 130 years later we are left trying to establish what was the truth and where that truth lies..

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Hello Trevor,

Here's a little, tiny goodie to consider.

When Eddowes was released from police custody, the last part of the conversation went as follows..

Hutt pushes open the swinging door of that station.
"This way missus," he says, "please pull it to."
"All right'" Kate replies, "Goodnight, old ****."

Now I'll ask a daft question. According to Hutt, he PUSHED the "swinging door" of the station, open.
But he asks Eddowes to "PULL IT TO" as she leaves.

According to the first line then, the door to the station opens outwards.
Yet in the next line, it clearly opens inwards, as Eddowes, is, asked to PULL the door to, not Push the door to, behind her.

Why is this little tint bit important?

Firstly, because the way the door opens means that if it was Eddowes pushing the door open, she would be in front of the policeman, Hutt, when exiting. If an inward facing door, it would possibly be Hutt opening the door for her. But... And here's the but..
Eddowes was asked to "pull the door to" upon exiting, which indicates Hutt was nowhere near the door when she walked out, as he asked her to pull the door to after her.

Also, because, I'm very unsure how a person can see which direction a person walks away from the door if the door is an inward opening door, unless there was a window in said door.. Something I'm unsure about.
And if Hutt was nowhere near the door.. He'd have to be near a window to see which way she turned. (unless the door had glass windows in).

Hutt makes no mention of from where he saw Eddowes leave, only mentioning the direction she walked. How did he know?

Best wishes

Phil