Kate's Apron

[Herlock Sholmes]

As do the farcical attempts at rebuttal

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

There's no need to attempt rebuttals Trevor. The idea that Kate didn't wear an apron only exists in your head. The evidence refutes it completely and your only course of action is to continually call out 'unsafe' in a desperate attempt to sideline it. Your theory has gained no traction and will continue to gain no traction. In 5 or 10 years time it will have gained no traction. It's your bias that won't allow you to admit it and not the bias of others that cause them to dismiss it.

[DJA]

Hi Michael,

Where did you get 2 x 2 ft section? The closest I've seen was only recently in a post here, where the description was "cut in half" type thing, from a newspaper report I hadn't seen before. Is there another where they give measurements somewhere? Could you please post it, or indicate the paper and date of the story where this comes from (I'm assuming it's a newspaper, but happy to be corrected). Cheers.

- Jeff

That's nit picking.

[Trevor Marriott]

There's no need to attempt rebuttals Trevor. The idea that Kate didn't wear an apron only exists in your head. The evidence refutes it completely and your only course of action is to continually call out 'unsafe' in a desperate attempt to sideline it. Your theory has gained no traction and will continue to gain no traction. In 5 or 10 years time it will have gained no traction. It's your bias that won't allow you to admit it and not the bias of others that cause them to dismiss it.

Why dont you change the record, or better still zip it. You are getting yourself worked up to the point that your obsession with with the old accepted theory is affecting your ability to reason in a logical manner. Be like me when you know you are right you can stay calm and focused

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Herlock Sholmes]

Why dont you change the record, or better still zip it. You are getting yourself worked up to the point that your obsession with with the old accepted theory is affecting your ability to reason in a logical manner. Be like me when you know you are right you can stay calm and focused

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

For a man who is well known for parroting “old established theories’ every time someone disagrees with him, asking me to change the record is a bit rich. As is calling me ‘obsessive’ when you’re the one defending a theory at all costs. For some, reason flies out of the window for some when there’s a theory to be defended.

Im not at all ‘worked up’ Trevor nor will I follow your instruction to ‘zip it.’ Sorry about that.

The fact that you ‘know’ that you are right is based on a mix of a biased interpretation of evidence and the ignoring of inconvenient evidence combined with baseless speculations. Opinion stated as fact AGAIN.

[JeffHamm]

That's nit picking.

Ha ha
- jeff

[JeffHamm]

You are ducking and diving yet again

definiton of cursory "hasty and therefore not thorough or detailed"

They did not carry out a full post mortem in the early hours, so any examination had to be cursory.

But again its what the newspaper reported using their words is that safe to rely on as being accurate in any event?

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

No, I'm pointing out how yet again you adapt the evidence to suit your theory. That's why you keep ending up painted into logical corners and skewered by your own rules.

So, because you are defenseless, and devoid of factual support, you resort to saying black is white and up is down. Once you reverse the data, we get to your ideas, effectively the polar opposite of correct.

The only thing I need duck and weave is the gobs of flesh of your exploded story.

- Jeff

[Trevor Marriott]

No, I'm pointing out how yet again you adapt the evidence to suit your theory. That's why you keep ending up painted into logical corners and skewered by your own rules.

So, because you are defenseless, and devoid of factual support, you resort to saying black is white and up is down. Once you reverse the data, we get to your ideas, effectively the polar opposite of correct.

The only thing I need duck and weave is the gobs of flesh of your exploded story.

- Jeff

And that exploded story dismisses the vain attempts you keep coming out with to prop up the old accepted theory

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[JeffHamm]

And that exploded story dismisses the vain attempts you keep coming out with to prop up the old accepted theory

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

When all you have to start with is mistepresented statements, we don't even get to the point where we need to worry about the accuracy of the real evidence because your failure to comprehend the meaning of the 1888 newspaper story has derailed you already.

See if you can comprehend this, I'm not defending the news story as correct, I'm just pointing out you are deliberately misrepresenting what it actually said in the first place. You're so wrong already at that point everything else you say is eating bandwidth.
.- Jeff

[harry]

The hardest part,is that no one can furnish a list of what she was wearing,or was in her possession the last time she was seen before her death.Or what was taken by her killer.

[Michael W Richards]

Ok, the possession lists are for On Her person at time of Murder;

• Black straw bonnet trimmed in green and black velvet with black beads. Black strings, worn tied to the head.
• Black cloth jacket trimmed around the collar and cuffs with imitation fur and around the pockets in black silk braid and fur. Large metal buttons.
• Dark green chintz skirt, 3 flounces, brown button on waistband. The skirt is patterned with Michaelmas daisies and golden lilies.
• Man's white vest, matching buttons down front.
• Brown linsey bodice, black velvet collar with brown buttons down front
• Grey stuff petticoat with white waistband
• Very old green alpaca skirt (worn as undergarment)
• Very old ragged blue skirt with red flounces, light twill lining (worn as undergarment)
• White calico chemise
• No drawers or stays
• Pair of men's lace up boots, mohair laces. Right boot repaired with red thread
• 1 piece of red gauze silk worn as a neckerchief
• 1 large white pocket handkerchief
• 1 large white cotton handkerchief with red and white bird's eye border
• 2 unbleached calico pockets, tape strings
• 1 blue stripe bed ticking pocket
• Brown ribbed knee stockings, darned at the feet with white cotton

Which can then be compared with what she had on her at Bishopsgate;

• 2 small blue bags made of bed ticking
• 2 short black clay pipes
• 1 tin box containing tea
• 1 tin box containing sugar
• 1 tin matchbox, empty
• 12 pieces white rag, some slightly bloodstained
• 1 piece coarse linen, white
• 1 piece of blue and white shirting, 3 cornered
• 1 piece red flannel with pins and needles
• 6 pieces soap
• 1 small tooth comb
• 1 white handle table knife
• 1 metal teaspoon
• 1 red leather cigarette case with white metal fittings
• 1 ball hemp
• 1 piece of old white apron with repair
• Several buttons and a thimble
• Mustard tin containing two pawn tickets, One in the name of Emily Birrell, 52 White's Row, dated August 31, 9d for a man's flannel shirt. The other is in the name of Jane Kelly of 6 Dorset Street and dated September 28, 2S for a pair of men's boots. Both addresses are false.
• Printed handbill and according to a press report- a printed card for 'Frank Carter,305,Bethnal Green Road

• Portion of a pair of spectacles
• 1 red mitten

The line I made bold is maybe what this was about, an apron "piece", with a repair. Sounds like the same one found off Goulston. But it dosnt sound like she was wearing that "piece" to me. Its sounds like an item she had on her, not neccesarily one she wore.

[Fiver]

Hi Fiver,

It would not at all surprise me if JtR did cut himself as that is very common in knife attacks. It's one of the things the police will look for if they get onto a suspect early enough, signs of cuts to their own hands. Obviously it doesn't happen every time, but it is common enough that it is something to always look for. So, I think your bandage idea is a very reasonable one (and might explain why he took so long to discard it; G.S. is about a 5-7 minute walk from Mitre Square, and that probably is in the right range to stop a cut from bleeding. Of course, that would mean suggesting PC Long missed the apron piece on his 2:20 patrol).

In the past I've wondered along the lines of thinking that if JtR had cut himself in this case, given the presence of fecal matter due to the cutting of her intestines and bowel, there becomes the possibility that JtR then ended up with an infection, which could result in sepsis. If so, he would have been very ill for some time. While entirely speculative, such an idea could suggest an avenue for research into hospital admittances shortly after the Eddowes murder for someone cuts on their hands becoming infected and requiring treatment. Not sure if hospital records would exist to do such a thing, and it is a long shot. But there is a small non-zero possibility that such a case could be found, and if the person could also make for a viable suspect, they may be worth looking into further. It would be a lot of work though, and admittedly the chance of finding anything is low, but it is one of those ideas to which I would love to have the answer. I fear I know what it would be already, and we're probably not missing out on any great discovery if my fear is correct.

- Jeff

I see we are thinking along the same line. It could also explain the length of the gap between the Eddowes and Kelly murders as the Ripper recovered from the infection. And perhaps the added level of violence towards Kelly's remains - if the last victim had nearly killed him, he might want to take that out on the next body.

[Fiver]

Ok, the possession lists are for On Her person at time of Murder;

There was a single list, not two lists. This has already been covered.

Could whoever posted that list before please repost it. Michael seems to have missed it the first time.

[Michael W Richards]

There was a single list, not two lists. This has already been covered.

Could whoever posted that list before please repost it. Michael seems to have missed it the first time.

Thanks for that Fiver, I hadnt seen someone claimed it was a single list. However, that to me seems improbable. She would have been inventoried when checking into jail as a matter of procedure, and then inventoried again when stripped for examination. 2 locations, different people, different procedures. How could that equate to 1 list?

[Wickerman]

There was a single list, not two lists. This has already been covered.

Could whoever posted that list before please repost it. Michael seems to have missed it the first time.

Actual list of possessions made by Insp. Collard at Golden Lane Mortuary.

Black straw bonnet trimmed with green & black velvet and black beads, black strings. The bonnet was loosely tied, and had partially fallen from the back of her head, no blood on front, but the back was lying in a pool of blood, which had run from the neck.

Black Cloth Jacket, imitation fur edging round coller, fur round sleeves, no blood on front outside, large quantity of blood inside & outside back, outside back very dirty with blood and dirt, 2 outside pockets, trimmed black silk braid & imitation fur.

Chintz Skirt 3 flounces, brown button on waistband, Jagged cut 6½ inches long from waistband, left side of front, Edges slightly Bloodstained, also Blood on bottom, back & front of skirt.

Brown Linsey Dress Bodice, black velvet collar, brown metal buttons down front, blood inside & outside back of neck & shoulders, clean cut bottom of left side, 5 inches long from right to left.

Grey Stuff Petticoat, white waist band, cut 1½ inch long, thereon in front, Edges blood stained, blood stains on front at bottom of Petticoat.

Very Old Green Alpaca Skirt, Jagged cut 10 ½ inches long in front of waistband downward, blood stained inside, front under cut.

Very Old Ragged Blue Skirt, red flounce, light twill lining, jagged cut 10 ½ inches long, through waistband, downward, blood stained, inside & outside back and front.

White Calico Chemise, very much blood stained all over, apparently torn thus ---/__ in middle of front.

Mans White Vest, button to match down front, 2 outside pockets, torn at back, very much Blood stained at back, Blood & other stains on front.

No Drawers or Stays.

Pair of Mens lace up Boots, mohair laces, right boot has been repaired with red thread, 6 Blood marks on right boot.

1 piece of red gauze Silk, various cuts thereon found on neck.

1 large White Handkerchief, blood stained.

2 Unbleached Calico Pockets, tape strings, cut through also top left hand corners, cut off one.

1 Blue Stripe Bed ticking Pocket, waist band, and strings cut through, (all 3 Pockets) Blood stained.

1 White Cotton Pocket Handkerchief, red and white birds eye border.

1 Pr. Brown ribbed Stockings, feet mended with white.

12 pieces of white Rag, some slightly bloodstained.

1 piece of white coarse Linen.

1 piece of Blue & White Shirting (3 cornered).

2 Small Blue Bed ticking Bags.

2 Short Clay Pipes (black).

1 Tin Box containing Tea.

1 do do do Sugar.

1 Piece of Flannel & 6 pieces of Soap.

1 Small Tooth Comb.

1 White Handle Table Knife & 1 Metal Tea Spoon.

1 Red Leather Cigarette Case, white metal fittings.

1 Tin Match Box, empty.

1 piece of Red Flannel containing Pins & Needles.

1 Ball of Hemp.

1 Piece of old White Apron.



Not included on this list are items found by Sgt. Jones and handed to Insp. Collard at the crime scene:

3 small black buttons,

a small metal button,

a common metal thimble,

a small mustard tin containing 2 pawn tickets


Also, one piece of apron found in Goulstone Street by PC Long.

[Wickerman]

Thanks for that Fiver, I hadnt seen someone claimed it was a single list. However, that to me seems improbable. She would have been inventoried when checking into jail as a matter of procedure, and then inventoried again when stripped for examination. 2 locations, different people, different procedures. How could that equate to 1 list?

Only one list of possessions was made, and that was by Insp. Collard at the Mortuary.
Any items found beside the body are listed separately as individual items of evidence, no such list exists, only the one by Collard.
If a list was made when she was taken into custody then that list has not survived.