Kates Cuts

[Wickerman]

.........
So,... since we have no evidence that Mary had been walking any streets at all that night for clients, or with any regularity leading up to her death, and since we have no evidence she ever brought a strange man, aside from Blotchy...(one we don't know already) to her room, I guess she wasn't a streetwalker or a "home entertainment" worker that night. Which returns to my original question about her killer. At what point do we see any indication that someone who sought streetwalkers actively working the streets would then try small off street courtyards and private rooms, where he would find no-one walking any streets?

When you add that she was already drunk when she got home, you almost 100% have someone who came to her room for her specifically. Not someone who picks up strangers outdoors while they worked, or who is opportunity activated.

When you choose to ignore evidence that Kelly was seen out on the streets then of course you will create a mystery. The mystery is all of your own creation.
I know you don't like the idea she was out after 1:00am. And please don't try promote the idea that a person drunk, tipsy or spreeish would not go out again, especially when said person was known to be in dire need of money. But, Kelly was stated to be out in three sources, yet not one source claimed or suggested that she didn't go out.
Your argument Michael is too devoid of reality to be worthy of entertaining.

[Trevor Marriott]

Nichols' killer strangled her, cut her throat, mutilated the body, and posed it.

Chapman's killer strangled her, cut her throat, mutilated the body, and posed it.

Strides killer strangled her and cut her throat. That may have been all he intended, but that is assumption.

Eddowes' killer strangled her, cut her throat, mutilated the body, and posed it.

Kelly's killer strangled her, cut her throat, mutilated the body, and posed it.

Save for Stride, the killings show escalating levels of mutilation, not completely different intentions.

There is no evidence that the bodies were posed.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Michael W Richards]

When you choose to ignore evidence that Kelly was seen out on the streets then of course you will create a mystery. The mystery is all of your own creation.
I know you don't like the idea she was out after 1:00am. And please don't try promote the idea that a person drunk, tipsy or spreeish would not go out again, especially when said person was known to be in dire need of money. But, Kelly was stated to be out in three sources, yet not one source claimed or suggested that she didn't go out.
Your argument Michael is too devoid of reality to be worthy of entertaining.

To my recollection Mrs Maxwell was the only witness in any of these cases to have her statement directly challenged when giving it to the Inquest, so the actual number of potentially believable witnesses goes down. George Hutchinson is a discredited witness in the history books. Im still amused, although I probably should be pissed, that claims that using the evidence to make an argument is "devoid of reality", but for my money presuming a series of Five women murdered as being by what must amount to be the only man in the East End who acted violently towards women from late Aug to early NOV, without the requisite evidence linking them, isn't a reality at all. This focus on the degree and type of evisceration is I agree prudent, for sure, we cant guess who should be on that list without some sense of what kind of person were looking for, his capabilities and preferences. Based on that "reality" for me there seems to be a good possibility of 4 victims, and not all that same Fall. Alice Mackenzie fits the profile better than some Canonicals, post Tabram.

If Alice Mackenzie can be included, and he is therefore not the same killer the police claim was institutionalized...presuming he was this Jack, of course.....then there are 2 men who did similar things. And what of the 8 or 9 more Unsolved murders of that same period...by this killer of Alice?,.. they got the wrong man in an institution and Jack was still out there?, they never really had any suspect for these crimes in custody at all?, he actually poisons more women later on?, that there seems to be more than 1 person capable and desirous of killing women then cutting into them?

There are obviously other men killing women of this type..Unfortunates...in that same area, around that same period.

[Michael W Richards]

There is no evidence that the bodies were posed.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

I would agree with 4 of the Five Trevor, but I think a pretty good case can be made for Mary Kelly. He placed a hand over her empty midsection after he had emptied it. It doesn't appear to be a move based on a convenience. When you have her head aligned to face the rooms entrance, that's suggestive as well.

[Sam Flynn]

When you have [Kelly's] head aligned to face the rooms entrance, that's suggestive as well.

Assuming it didn't just flop over of its own accord. Given the extent of her throat wounds, there wasn't much muscle holding the head to the rest of her body.

[Michael W Richards]

Assuming it didn't just flop over of its own accord. Given the extent of her throat wounds, there wasn't much muscle holding the head to the rest of her body.

Fair enough Sam, but the arm being placed back over the body may be the additional evidence that suggests some readjusting of the emptied woman.

[Trevor Marriott]

I would agree with 4 of the Five Trevor, but I think a pretty good case can be made for Mary Kelly. He placed a hand over her empty midsection after he had emptied it. It doesn't appear to be a move based on a convenience. When you have her head aligned to face the rooms entrance, that's suggestive as well.

Well that might point to a separate killer !

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Sam Flynn]

Fair enough Sam, but the arm being placed back over the body may be the additional evidence that suggests some readjusting of the emptied woman.

Indeed, but it's not much of a "pose", is it? If he'd intended to pose the body to send some sort of message or for added shock value, he could have sat the corpse on a chair directly facing the door.

[c.d.]

Basically any position the body is found in could be a pose meaning that it had some significance to the killer of which we have no way of knowing.

c.d.

[Abby Normal]

I don't know if they were overtly posed-but the killer left them in such a way for max shock value, so to me kind of a moot point anyway.
many serial killers will make some attempt to cover up or hide, maybe drag the body a few feet behind something, or even cover them up with something. None of this done with the ripper victims. Kelly had some weird things done-like the breasts, other parts placed beneath her head-so something is going on-and with victims killed in there own room many times the killer will at least cover them up with a blanket.

so IMHO I tink there is de facto "posing" going on.

[Abby Normal]

Basically any position the body is found in could be a pose meaning that it had some significance to the killer of which we have no way of knowing.

c.d.

bingo CD good point.

[JeffHamm]

There is no evidence that the bodies were posed.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Well, there is, it's just not very strong evidence, and the position of the bodies could simply reflect the process of mutilating them. It's too open to explanations in both directions to make conclusive statements either way.

- Jeff

[JeffHamm]

I don't know if they were overtly posed-but the killer left them in such a way for max shock value, so to me kind of a moot point anyway.
many serial killers will make some attempt to cover up or hide, maybe drag the body a few feet behind something, or even cover them up with something. None of this done with the ripper victims. Kelly had some weird things done-like the breasts, other parts placed beneath her head-so something is going on-and with victims killed in there own room many times the killer will at least cover them up with a blanket.

so IMHO I tink there is de facto "posing" going on.

Covering of a victim, such as with a blanket, is more common when the killer knows the victim well. Obviously it's not done every time there is that personal knowledge, and not every time it is done does it mean there is a relationship, but it is more commonly associated with that being the case.

- Jeff

[jerryd]

There is no evidence that the bodies were posed.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Hi Trevor,

I don't see it likely that Catherine Eddowes fell to the ground with both her palms facing upwards. Yet, that's how she was found.

[Abby Normal]

Covering of a victim, such as with a blanket, is more common when the killer knows the victim well. Obviously it's not done every time there is that personal knowledge, and not every time it is done does it mean there is a relationship, but it is more commonly associated with that being the case.

- Jeff

bingo. classic stranger murder.