Kates Cuts

[Michael W Richards]

Im confused about the Geographic Profile. Doesnt the algorithm assume JTR chose the murder locations?

I think its likely that 1. He chose, 2. She chose, 3. spur of the moment, 4. he chose, and 5. it was chosen for him.

[Michael W Richards]

Indeed, but a non-Ripper wouldn't necessarily know that, whereas whoever eviscerated Annie Chapman would know pretty well what he could get away with in a given time. Why would a non-Ripper "hitman" bother with wasting any more time than was absolutely necessary?

Wouldn't you consider getting away with murder "absolutely necessary" Sam? The extra eviscerations set the direction for the investigations that followed, making someone look down the wrong street or in the wrong direction?

[Michael W Richards]

That is another matter - and it does not predispose that you live in the area, only that you are well aquainted with it. Take a cab driver, for instance; he will certainly be better versed in area geographies where he works than many people who actually live in the areas.

Jack the Ripper was almost certainly always on foot, which requires a lot more intimate knowledge of an area than driving around it does. In my own life I know several walking paths that shorten the distance between 2 points rather than using streets or roads, and they are also less visible as a result.

[Sam Flynn]

Wouldn't you consider getting away with murder "absolutely necessary" Sam? The extra eviscerations set the direction for the investigations that followed, making someone look down the wrong street or in the wrong direction?

If he wanted to make it look like a Ripper murder, he could just have "ripped" her belly open à la Polly Nichols. Instead, he excised a uterus, a section of colon and a kidney - in near darkness!!! - thereby exceeding anything the Ripper had done up to that point. This was Jack the Ripper, alright, make no mistake.

[Fisherman]

Jack the Ripper was almost certainly always on foot, which requires a lot more intimate knowledge of an area than driving around it does. In my own life I know several walking paths that shorten the distance between 2 points rather than using streets or roads, and they are also less visible as a result.

Not agreed - being on foot in many ways limits your possibilities of taking in an area compared to driving around in it. The latter allows for a much more extensive covering of ground. Imagine that you want to quickly find out the layout of the streets in an area. Which will serve you better and quicker - doing it on foot or by car(t)?

Being on foot admittedly allows for learning about doorways and cramped alleyways, but who says the Ripper used any such knowledge? A cab driver would be excellently suited to learn and understand the streets and passageways in an area.

There is of course also the possibility that the killer had extensive former experience of the area but had moved slightly away to, say, the northeast. Why, he could even be using the exact same streets in his occupation - on foot!

Who knows? (Hint: somebody you are debating with, perhaps?)

[Michael W Richards]

If he wanted to make it look like a Ripper murder, he could just have "ripped" her belly open à la Polly Nichols. Instead, he excised a uterus, a section of colon and a kidney - in near darkness!!! - thereby exceeding anything the Ripper had done up to that point. This was Jack the Ripper, alright, make no mistake.

You may well be right, Im not as convinced as you though.

[Observer]

It is actually not a fact that he DID live in the area, Observer.

Considering that Nichols was murdered in Bucks Row Fisherman, I don't see why that area can't extend to Doveton Street

[Michael W Richards]

Not agreed - being on foot in many ways limits your possibilities of taking in an area compared to driving around in it. The latter allows for a much more extensive covering of ground. Imagine that you want to quickly find out the layout of the streets in an area. Which will serve you better and quicker - doing it on foot or by car(t)?

Being on foot admittedly allows for learning about doorways and cramped alleyways, but who says the Ripper used any such knowledge? A cab driver would be excellently suited to learn and understand the streets and passageways in an area.

There is of course also the possibility that the killer had extensive former experience of the area but had moved slightly away to, say, the northeast. Why, he could even be using the exact same streets in his occupation - on foot!

Who knows? (Hint: somebody you are debating with, perhaps?)

I know how youd like to spin this bit of debate, but it seems clear to most that to know the area intimately enough to travel avenues/alleys, streets that allowed him to remain unseen leaving any alleged Ripper murder scene, he had to be travelling on foot. He picked up Polly and Annie while on foot and left the same way, someone killed Liz and left on foot, Its hard to imagine someone not being on foot from Mitre Square, and someone using a small courtyard with only one way out means they had to leave on foot there. If someone had to have egress from all the sites on foot, it stands to reason he would know where to walk, where to turn, what alleys turn into other streets, where cover is...etc. That's walking knowledge of the area. Someone who would walk from the train station to a local job, someone who would take a hansom into the area for work, they would not be exposed to the entire realm that these killings took place within.

[Fisherman]

I know how youd like to spin this bit of debate,

You DO? And here I was, trying to obscure it!! I should have known that you would see right through me.

... but it seems clear to most ...

No no no - don´t think that you can voice what "the most" would beleive, Michael. Stick with your own convictions, and don´t try to push them down peoples throats.

that to know the area intimately enough to travel avenues/alleys, streets that allowed him to remain unseen leaving any alleged Ripper murder scene, he had to be travelling on foot.

Of course not. You can get an extremely intimate and precise view of a street net by way of travelling it by car(t).

He picked up Polly and Annie while on foot and left the same way, someone killed Liz and left on foot, Its hard to imagine someone not being on foot from Mitre Square, and someone using a small courtyard with only one way out means they had to leave on foot there.

If you think that I am saying that the killer employed a cart on his murderous outings, you are wrong. I am saying that somebody can get a good enough overview of the street layout by means of using a car(t) to enable him/her to keep track of escape routes, etcetera. And therefore, we should not predispose that the killer must have lived in the area to be killing there; he could be well enough aquainted with the streets for a large variety of reasons anyway. THAT is what I am saying.

If someone had to have egress from all the sites on foot, it stands to reason he would know where to walk, where to turn, what alleys turn into other streets, where cover is...etc. That's walking knowledge of the area. Someone who would walk from the train station to a local job, someone who would take a hansom into the area for work, they would not be exposed to the entire realm that these killings took place within.

Any ten year old messenger boy would be extremely well aquainted with the streets he worked. Anybody who had stayed in the area for many years and then moved away would have the same insights. Hansom cab drivers, carmen (!), prostitutes etc, would have it too. The idea that the killer must have resided in the very area where he killed is not true - at all.
And that is the "spin" I am putting on it.

[Fisherman]

Considering that Nichols was murdered in Bucks Row Fisherman, I don't see why that area can't extend to Doveton Street

True enough, of course. I guess what I am saying is that placing our bets only on residence sites would be foolhardy. Many other parameters must be weighed in.

[Observer]

Of course, if the killer and his victims were based in the same small area, then whoever chose the locations becomes somewhat academic. Unless he had private transport, the murders were always likely to happen within easy walking distance of where both killer and victim lived.

Not quite academic to those who believe that Stride, Eddowes, and Kelly were not soliciting prior to their deaths.

Surely if the three ladies in question, plus Nichols and Chapman, were soliciting when they met JTR then in my opinion it's highly likely they chose the location where they were to meet their deaths.

[Michael W Richards]

Any ten year old messenger boy would be extremely well aquainted with the streets he worked. Anybody who had stayed in the area for many years and then moved away would have the same insights. Hansom cab drivers, carmen (!), prostitutes etc, would have it too. The idea that the killer must have resided in the very area where he killed is not true - at all.
And that is the "spin" I am putting on it.

The reasons are bleeding obvious why he almost certainly lived in that area Fisherman. Though Im guessing by your responses your fav Suspect for every unsolved murder occurring in the East End in the 1880's didn't.

[Michael W Richards]

Not quite academic to those who believe that Stride, Eddowes, and Kelly were not soliciting prior to their deaths.

Surely if the three ladies in question, plus Nichols and Chapman, were soliciting when they met JTR then in my opinion it's highly likely they chose the location where they were to meet their deaths.

There is no evidence to suggest that those three were indeed soliciting at the time Observer, so I hear that. But as for Kelly, by being in her own room and in her underwear she really didn't choose anyplace in particular. She was at home. Pretty much every woman in the East End or London for that matter who was at home at the time was safe too.

[Fisherman]

The reasons are bleeding obvious why he almost certainly lived in that area Fisherman. Though Im guessing by your responses your fav Suspect for every unsolved murder occurring in the East End in the 1880's didn't.

Let´s set you straight directly here:

What is "bleeding obvious" to some people is less so to others - that is the nature of things. Besides, many serial killers have not lived where they perpetrated their crimes, so there is nothing bleeeding obvious to see here.

My favourite suspect is not a suspect for every unsolved murder in the East End of the 1880:s, I´m afraid. He is a suspect for every unsolved murder involving mutilations and eviscerations (and that takes us back into the 1870:s too, mind you), and that is because mutilators and eviscerators are rarer than a useful comment from you these days. I have him down for a round dozen murders, just about, give or take a few. That would not even put him in the top 100 when it comes to number of victims, so hinting at it being very strange if he killed numerous victims is simply wrong. Killing a dozen victims, probably prostitutes most or all of them, is middle of the road, sadly.

And of course, he lived directly adjacent to what is described as the murder area out here, and passed through that area on a daily basis. He has more proven opportunity and is a better geographical fit than any other suspect suggested, so whaddayouknow - you got that wrong too.

The four Stooges you have down for the canonical five murders would be a much, much rarer thing than a common evisceration killer. Then again, you don´t care much about the realities of these things, do you? It´s all about nose cutting mafias, deluded sheep butchers and personal deeds for you, is it not? Of course, it may be that I am wrong about that - it´s just that it seems so bleeding obvious...

Goodnight, Michael.

[Sam Flynn]

Not quite academic to those who believe that Stride, Eddowes, and Kelly were not soliciting prior to their deaths.

I meant that it was academic purely in terms of the geographical profile, which is what was under discussion. If the women were died near where they lived (which they all did), and if the killer lived in the same area (which he probably did), then the geo-profle is going to look pretty much identical whether the women chose the locations or not.