John's Echo Interview

[Phil Carter]

Hi Phil,

Oh bugger! Now it's 188.

This is beginning to sound like a really cheapo serial killer movie.

Regards,

Simon

Hello Simon,

It has something to do with a probable living relation to one being talked about at the upcoming conference by one of the speakers.


Best wishes

Phil

[Phil Carter]

Hello Lynn, Simon,

Re alcohol in the system.
I was under the impression, perhaps wrongly, that consumption of too much alcohol causep dehydration?

Best wishes

Phil

[Cogidubnus]

Booze

Typically a pint of beer at today's strength is between two and two and a half British alcohol "units"...four pints = 8 to 10 units...Victorian beer though was what strength?

As far as gin is concerned, at 40% alcohol by volume, a modern half-bottle (35 cl), is, I'd guess, roughly the equivalent of Lynns 3 to 4 large glasses of gin...this equates to no less than fourteen British alcohol "units"...

Whilst dissipation rates do differ (being typically more rapid for large-built men than small-built women) the average rate for full absorption/dissipation is 1 hour per unit following the last drink...

This implies that Eddowes, whether hardened or not to alcohol, was still at least 9 units pissed when she was released from custody...to put this in proportion this is probably between four and five times the current UK driving limits...

Let's be fair though...this is pure conjecture based on Lynn's estimate...

I'm wondering whether the "test" for alcohol at this time might have comprised no more than sniffing the stomach contents - in which case the fairly subtle smell of Gin might well have been masked by the stomach's naturally sour HCl content (as opposed to more malt-based liquors which would tend to be more distinguishable)? Again I'm doing no more than guessing....

All the best

Dave

[Wickerman]

Alcohol is absorbed directly through the stomach lining, it does not linger in the stomach except for that which is absorbed in food.

Regards, Jon S.

[Addy]

Hi all,

Not to be gruesome but taking into consideration what had been done to her body, I doubt you would be able to smell anything apart from the contents of her intestines. And indeed, seeing her in that state, I don't think the presence of alcohol would be the first concern.

When tested for narcotics, I thought they always meant it in the same way as we understand it: drugs, with alcohol not being included as a narcotic.

Perhaps I've missed something but why is there any doubt that the woman arrested for being drunk was Kate? And what alternative explanation is there for her whereabouts during this time?

Greetings,

Addy

[Trevor Marriott]

Hi all,

Not to be gruesome but taking into consideration what had been done to her body, I doubt you would be able to smell anything apart from the contents of her intestines. And indeed, seeing her in that state, I don't think the presence of alcohol would be the first concern.

When tested for narcotics, I thought they always meant it in the same way as we understand it: drugs, with alcohol not being included as a narcotic.

Perhaps I've missed something but why is there any doubt that the woman arrested for being drunk was Kate? And what alternative explanation is there for her whereabouts during this time?

Greetings,

Addy

May I from a professional perspective add something to this debate.

In the case of Eddowes who was detained for being drunk and then released several hours later. Obvioulsy we cannot say how sober she was on her release however she had to be sufficiently sober for her to be released. I doubt she would have been released if she had been unsteady on her feet and not been able to engage in some cohesive dialogue, which would seem to have occurred with the police prior to her release.

Based on police practices today 4 hours is about a standard time for persons having cosumed alcohol to be detained before release or an interview is considered, again this would depend on how drunk that person was on arrival at the police station.

As far as anyone being able to smell alcohol on the body, that is unlikley unless of course she had spilled more alcohol down her than she had consumed then the smell of stale alchohol may have been noticed then it would have taken a good nose to detect that out in the open in Mitre Square.

A person who has been drunk and sobered up will still have the smell of alcohol on their breath for some hours, but that would only be detected by someone being close enough to smell the breath or being in a confined close space with them. Of course Eddowes was dead and not breathing when found by the police.

Hence the saying "To smell like a brewery"

[Monty]

Eddowes was released when she was deemed able to take care of herself.

Hutt did the rounds, engaged her in conversation and decided she was, and Byfield agreed.

Monty

[Debra A]

May I from a professional perspective add something to this debate.

In the case of Eddowes who was detained for being drunk and then released several hours later. Obvioulsy we cannot say how sober she was on her release however she had to be sufficiently sober for her to be released. I doubt she would have been released if she had been unsteady on her feet and not been able to engage in some cohesive dialogue, which would seem to have occurred with the police prior to her release.

Based on police practices today 4 hours is about a standard time for persons having cosumed alcohol to be detained before release or an interview is considered, again this would depend on how drunk that person was on arrival at the police station.

As far as anyone being able to smell alcohol on the body, that is unlikley unless of course she had spilled more alcohol down her than she had consumed then the smell of stale alchohol may have been noticed then it would have taken a good nose to detect that out in the open in Mitre Square.

A person who has been drunk and sobered up will still have the smell of alcohol on their breath for some hours, but that would only be detected by someone being close enough to smell the breath or being in a confined close space with them. Of course Eddowes was dead and not breathing when found by the police.

Hence the saying "To smell like a brewery"

Thanks, Trevor. This is what several people have been saying for a long time. Maybe certain people will take notice of you saying the same. Excellent post.

[lynn cates]

rationes

Hello Simon. Thanks.

"But why should alcohol have been overlooked?"

Well, I think they were assuming that:

1. The identification was sound.

2. She was decidedly drunk. (As per Robinson.)

Sloppy procedure? Could be.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

dehydration

Hello Phil. Thanks. Yes, dehydration seems a side effect. Wonder if that has any bearing on the contents of Kate's bladder?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

alcohol

Hello Dave. Thanks. Do you think that Kate could have been that drunk on less alcohol than I have conjectured?

Cheers.
LC

[Monty]

Sorry, to clarify, is there suggestion the woman in Mitre Square is NOT Eddowes?

Cheers
Monty

[lynn cates]

nyet

Hello Neil. Well, not on my part.

Cheers.
LC

[Jon Guy]

Hi Lynn

Sloppy procedure? Could be.

It was 1888.

If it happened in 1986, then possibly.

[GregBaron]

Sober as Rumpole....

Hello Greg. Thanks. Which brings up the question, how many drinks WOULD it take? I am guessing 3-4 large glasses of gin.

What do you think?

Hi Lynn,

Wow, you must have a Scottish capacity for alcohol...(heh heh) ...My guess would be 2 or 3 small glasses. Perhaps someone out here knows how gin was typically served in Victorian pubs. What is straight up? Was it indeed 80 proof or more? Was it mixed with anything?

My guess would be that a glass was 4 to 6 ounces(118 to 177 milliliters). A woman that size who may be an alcoholic could get smashed on a couple of glasses, surely by 3....

I agree with Trevor and company that after 4 hours she was deemed sober enough to be released. She may have been technically inebriated by today's ludicrous standards but we all know that's a sham...

Also, if we think the woman in Church passage was Eddowes, talking quietly with a hand on the chest really isn't the demeanor of a drunk...

I also agree with those who say her level of intoxication wasn't a pressing issue............



Greg