Jack's Escape from Mitre Square

[DJA]

I actually researched it 16 years ago.
Melbourne was very much like London in the late 19th century.
The whole idea was not to have "broad acceptance as a euphemism for homosexual",mainly because one could end up with 2 years hard labor in England.
Blackmailing homosexual males was an industry back then!

[Michael W Richards]

I actually researched it 16 years ago.
Melbourne was very much like London in the late 19th century.
The whole idea was not to have "broad acceptance as a euphemism for homosexual",mainly because one could end up with 2 years hard labor in England.
Blackmailing homosexual males was an industry back then!

Not suprised at that last line. Ill defer to your research on the topic, I know that in any literature that Ive read from the period that word isnt used to describe homosexuals. Its the dance around saying that...prefers males or females, different persuasions...

The religious influences that helped form the nation seem uneasy with a defined word.

Im very lucky Im white, christian and heterosexual, because Ive avoided being the victim of such predjudices.

[Juniper4576]

I actually researched it 16 years ago.
Melbourne was very much like London in the late 19th century.
The whole idea was not to have "broad acceptance as a euphemism for homosexual",mainly because one could end up with 2 years hard labor in England.
Blackmailing homosexual males was an industry back then!

Hmm, Sir Will and Henry, being blackmailed because of this or am just barking again Dave

[MrBarnett]

Homosexual communities tended to use terms like gay at that time .
Same thing here in Melbourne. Gay coffee shops denoted homosexual establishments and there were several.
One was rebuilt as a hotel that was popular with Prime Ministers,yet retained a sophisticated gay bar until the whole shebang was demolished in 1989 and rebuilt again as a Novotel hotel.

A ‘gay’ house in LVP London was a brothel. If you have examples of gay being used at that time and it that place to mean homosexual, please share them.

[DJA]

Hmm, Sir Will and Henry, being blackmailed because of this or am just barking again Dave

Just Henry,as far as I'm concerned.

He was the reason RL Stevenson wrote his novella. Really worth a read.

[Scott Nelson]

1895, Scott.

That was the year John McCarthy’s younger brother, Daniel died at no. 36. I suspect the sheets over the window of 36 may have some connection to his passing.

Gary,

So you believe the older man in the photo is the Miller's Court McCarthy? Just asking, not challenging.

[MrBarnett]

Gary,

So you believe the older man in the photo is the Miller's Court McCarthy? Just asking, not challenging.

Not remotely. The man in the photo is obviously of the ’labouring class’ if he’d been a bit younger, he might have been Billy Maher. Jack McCarthy would have been much more smartly dressed.

[MrBarnett]

This is apparently Jack McCarthy’s son, ‘Steve’ - the comedian.

[Varqm]

They may not of known each other personally, but I do believe they had the same thing in common, which was all of their connection to Jack.

As DJA mentions, possibly blackmail for something.

If it is money that they are trying to gain, who would advertise that they are likely to come in to alot of money, MJK was heavily in debt as an example, the others probably owe someone something; possibly get the money and run.

MJK could not pay her arrears for ex..The victims just happen to be the ones on the streets when the JTR was looking for a victim.Same as whoever killed Alice McKenzie,Tabram.If these victims were blackmailing why open their abdomens get their organs.Overkill.

[Varqm]

Im not aboard a 5 woman conspiracy plot myself at this point in time, but I do agree with the idea that blackmail was likely involved in at least Kates murder roots.

Perhaps the real truth involves several of the possible avenues presently identified. Combined. Some Fenian connected man that Kate knew of when her social circle was Irish...(lets not forget her prominent tattoo, Conway obviously influenced her greatly), that had a penchant for violence and cold hearted behaviour..maybe a local bomber,... (and Mitre Square did at one time house dynamite for such people and movements)...he gets wind of Kate spouting off about turning in someone who she thinks is killing these women recently..something he may or may not be guilty of, but any police exposure would be dangerous for him, ...and the Senior men from counter espionage, intelligence gathering, management of spies and agents, (people powerful enough to know of intelligence suggesting catastrophic actions, and actually decide whether to act or not, notify or not.. even when the Queen herself is possibly in grave danger), are in a conundrum having ties themselves to some of the Irish movements most dangerous men.

Stories dont match, because there was no "conspiracy" plot..they just had to protect themselves, and perhaps in some cases, the nefarious men in their view.

Thats a loose fictional idea, based on facts. There needs to be a story, to believe otherwise is naive.

It's way overkill for getting rid of them.I do not think the victims knew anything about conspiracies,they just happened to be there.The killer I think was a visitor but knew the area because he worked in the area or near the area and his forebears lived within the area for decades.
One of two conspiracies I could believe was if JTR was Jewish they would not want a trial because of a potential riot and change of perceptions about the Jews,which was in part already negative.
Warren was concerned and had the graffito erased personally.What if a Jewish suspect was in trial and the evidence was getting stronger or found guilty, the East might riot,potentially would have been another pogrom or mini-pogrom.

"A discussion took place whether the writing could be left covered up or otherwise or whether any portion of it
could be left for an hour until it could be photographed; but after taking into consideration the excited state
of the population in London generally at the time, the strong feeling which had been excited against the Jews,
and the fact that in a short time there would be a large concourse of the people in the streets, and having
before me the Report that if it was left there the house was likely to be wrecked (in which from my own
observation I entirely concurred) I considered it desirable to obliterate the writing at once, having taken a
copy of which I enclose a duplicate." (Warrens report to the Home office).

I wonder if the the Report mentioned above exists.Probably not.

[JeffHamm]

MJK could not pay her arrears for ex..The victims just happen to be the ones on the streets when the JTR was looking for a victim.Same as whoever killed Alice McKenzie,Tabram.If these victims were blackmailing why open their abdomens get their organs.Overkill.

And if he's killing them because they are blackmailing him for being JtR, what was his motive for the first murder?

And if they're blackmailing him for something else, then as soon as it becomes obvious their "group" is being murdered, he would have been reported - either to a friend or group of friends, or to the police.

Postulating a blackmailing ring just starts to create all sorts of complications that don't exist otherwise, and it doesn't really seem to solve anything. It doesn't get any better if one limits the blackmailing to just be Kate, as then, what's the motive for the other murders?

- Jeff

[Scott Nelson]

This is apparently Jack McCarthy’s son, ‘Steve’ - the comedian.

OK fine. Not to derail this thread, but I still think the Miller's Court McCarthy and the McCarthy who had the comedian son, "Steve" were two separate people.

[spyglass]

No.There is no snippet of it from partners or friends .They were broke a lot and there was no money coming in.That Jack knew one or a couple of them is more believable.

Time to bring back the possible "Feinian " and possible "informer "angle again.....especially when it comes to MJK.

[JeffHamm]

It's way overkill for getting rid of them.I do not think the victims knew anything about conspiracies,they just happened to be there.The killer I think was a visitor but knew the area because he worked in the area or near the area and his forebears lived within the area for decades.
One of two conspiracies I could believe was if JTR was Jewish they would not want a trial because of a potential riot and change of perceptions about the Jews,which was in part already negative.
Warren was concerned and had the graffito erased personally.What if a Jewish suspect was in trial and the evidence was getting stronger or found guilty, the East might riot,potentially would have been another pogrom or mini-pogrom.

"A discussion took place whether the writing could be left covered up or otherwise or whether any portion of it
could be left for an hour until it could be photographed; but after taking into consideration the excited state
of the population in London generally at the time, the strong feeling which had been excited against the Jews,
and the fact that in a short time there would be a large concourse of the people in the streets, and having
before me the Report that if it was left there the house was likely to be wrecked (in which from my own
observation I entirely concurred) I considered it desirable to obliterate the writing at once, having taken a
copy of which I enclose a duplicate." (Warrens report to the Home office).

I wonder if the the Report mentioned above exists.Probably not.

Hi Varqm,

Ummm, you're quoting from the report, so how could you do that if the report doesn't exist? (well, didn't exist, since no doubt you're quoting from either another post or a book, and not viewing the original files directly. Anyway, yes, Warren's report did exist, and may still be in the files.

- Jeff

[DJA]

OK fine. Not to derail this thread, but I still think the Miller's Court McCarthy and the McCarthy who had the comedian son, "Steve" were two separate people.

You are wrong.
John/Steve was born in 1874.