Jack's Escape from Mitre Square

[Michael W Richards]

Who returned to the yard with Diemschutz?

"One of the members who is known as Isaacs went out with me."

Who was known as Isaacs?

"A member of the club named Kozebrodski, but familiarly known as "Isaacs," returned with Diemschitz into the court"

So it was "Isaacs", whose name was Isaac Kozebrodski, who returned to the yard with Diemschutz, then left to find a policeman, with Diemschutz, and eventually, together, they met Spooner.

All pretty straight forward Michael.

You didnt notice that all the above is by the man who is proven to be a liar by corroberated accounts by Issac K himself and 3 other witnesses including Spooner? Oh...and when Issacs is used its Issac[s], people like you didnt read what Issac K himself says. Straightforward indeed Jon.

A last comment, why do you think a junior member with the name Issac Kozebroski would "familiarly" or reasonably be known as Issacs anyway? Just wondering.

[Michael W Richards]

Now c'mon Michael, it has been explained to you before that a witness is only expected to respond with what "I did", "I saw", or "I heard". He isn't answering for the group, just himself. Had you ever been to court you would learn this first hand.

Incorrect if he is establishing that he went somewhere accompanied by someone. It would be "I went blah blah accompanied by Blah Blah." The omission of a second person being recorded as being with Israel based on Israels own statement wouldnt happen. Its never been a solo first person account from the statement on. A good question to ask, even if it was Issac K..thought it clearly wasnt...is why do we not hear from the man Louis says accompanied him? Just how much uncorroborated and contradicted "evidence" are you willing to swallow Jon?

[Michael W Richards]

Diemshutz:
"A member named Isaacs went down to the yard with me, and we struck a match and saw the blood right from the gate up the yard. Then we both went for the police, but unfortunately it was several minutes before we could find a constable".
Morning Advertiser, 1 Oct. 1888.

Diemschutz & Isaac K went together for police, and met Spooner.

No, THEY didnt. In fact Issac K meets up with Eagle and the police on his way back...alone. According to Issac K himself that is...someone it seems your loathe to quote, even though you seem ok with confirming him to be somewhere he doesnt say he is.

[Michael W Richards]

My post was for the other Canadian. Thanks though
His "proof" is ......

"Schwartz was connected with Wess from a visit to Paris a few years back, this was our fine researchers Debra's find, so I dont claim to know the specifics."

He has no proof that Wess could speak more than his native language,Yiddish and English.

Anyone know when this thread is reverting to Jack's purported escape from Mitre Square?

Wess also spoke Russian. We dont know what all Israel the Hungarian spoke, but he is an immigrant jew so Yiddish isnt really too much of a stretch is it?

[Michael W Richards]

Aside from Lithuanian (presumably, as he was born there) he spoke a couple of others, at least according to his obituary;

"He came to London, and after learning the English, German and Russian languages..."

No mention of Hungarian, though.

Someone who did do the research before making an empirical statement, good on ya Josh.

[Michael W Richards]

I suppose since we are just seeing the same parroted theories based on provable liars, back to Mitre as per thread is a good idea. Just because I know many of you like to get all hissy fitty over a new idea...thought Id offer one. Anyone ever consider that Jack didnt leave the square? That he lived in it?

[Tom_Wescott]

I believe the Star of Oct. 3rd gives us the best explanation for the discrepancies of the famous Schwartz Star interview and, in turn, explains why Schwartz was allowed to sit out the inquest. At that time, the police believed he was their best bet for catching the killer and used a Star reporter to print an article designed to bring either BS Man or Pipeman forward. It's not a terribly complicated plot and not one new to police. Unfortunately, it didn't work. For some reason, after November 1st, Schwartz disappears from the written record.

As for my idea that Schwartz knew Wess and that Wess may have been the man who accompanied Schwartz to the police station, it's just a theory and is based on the fact that Wess was aware of the Schwartz incident, Wess was accompanying other people to the police station for the same purpose, Schwartz had just moved from Berner Street and it's reasonable to expect he'd be familiar to the club and therefore to Wess. But it certainly might also have been someone not at all associated with the club.

I am completely unaware of a find that has Wess and Schwartz together in Paris. ..

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Wickerman]

The Star of Oct. 3rd doesn't contain anything of note, but the day before, Oct. 2nd carries the two paragraph report concerning "The matter of the Hungarian"..who saw a struggle in a passage.....

The relationship between the police (The Met.) and the press were not very good, but between the police and reporters of the Star were even worse.
Any coordination between police and press had to be approved by the Commissioner, and the only examples we have were with an agency like Central News, not a specific newspaper.
In fact Warren is known to have complained about the activities of press reporters to the Home Office.

Posters have tried to argue for a special relationship between the police and the Star newspaper before, which never amounted to more than wishful thinking, typically in an attempt to support a particular theory.
An extraordinary claim such as that requires extraordinary evidence, which somehow never materializes.

[JeffHamm]

I suppose since we are just seeing the same parroted theories based on provable liars, back to Mitre as per thread is a good idea. Just because I know many of you like to get all hissy fitty over a new idea...thought Id offer one. Anyone ever consider that Jack didnt leave the square? That he lived in it?

Hi Michael,

I've considered that in the past, but it seems to me fraught with difficulties. First, the police did a full inspection of the properties in the square and accounted for all those who lived there. While I suppose one could suggest JtR "fooled them", the next issue is that the apron appears in Goulston Street about an hour later. The square was pretty much locked down immediately after the murder, so even if JtR lived in the square it appears he left it as he dropped the apron off later. And if he first went to his home in the square, he wouldn't have been able to leave in order to drop the apron later. So, whether or not he lived in the square it appears he had to have left it.

- Jeff

[Wickerman]

You didnt notice that all the above is by the man who is proven to be a liar by corroberated accounts by Issac K himself and 3 other witnesses including Spooner?

Not true Michael.
"A member of the club named Kozebrodski, but familiarly known as "Isaacs," returned with Diemschitz into the court"
Are the words of the reporter, not Diemschutz.
All Diemschutz said was the man who came out with him was known as Isaacs. So from this we know Isaacs & Kozebrodski are the same man.

A last comment, why do you think a junior member with the name Issac Kozebroski would "familiarly" or reasonably be known as Issacs anyway? Just wondering.

Why was the actress Muguette Jenkins known by everyone as Megs?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megs_Jenkins

It seems you have run out of arguments if you are trying to pick fault with nicknames.

[Wickerman]

No, THEY didnt. In fact Issac K meets up with Eagle and the police on his way back...alone. According to Issac K himself that is...someone it seems your loathe to quote, even though you seem ok with confirming him to be somewhere he doesnt say he is.

Are you truly reading the statements Michael?


Here, Kozebrodski tells us he first went the same way as Diemschutz, and then went up to Commercial Rd (like Eagle), where he found a policeman.

"I immediately went for a policeman, and ran in the direction of Grove-street, but could not find one. Then I went into the Commercial-road, where I found two policemen. I brought them back with me,....."


In fact here in The Daily News we have more detail.....first he went with Diemschutz, then he went with Eagle.

"I went to look for a policeman at the request of Diemschitz or some other member of the club, but I took the direction towards Grove-street and could not find one. I afterwards went into the Commercial-road along with Eagle, and found two officers."


What did Eagle say?

"I ran towards the Commercial-road, Dienishitz, the club steward, and another member going in the opposite direction down Fairclough- street."


What did PC Lamb in Commercial Rd say?

"I was on duty in Commercial-road, between Christian-street and Batty-street, when two men came running towards me and shouting."

Two men - Eagle & Kozebrodski?
You really need to read all the press accounts to get the overall story.

Kozebrodski first went along Fairclough street with Diemschutz, then back, and went with Eagle up to Commercial Rd and found PC Lamb.

[DJA]

[DJA]

[DJA]

Edward Watkins - Jack the Ripper Wiki

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Seeing as you bring this up, it is well to look into the story a little closer.
As you previously quoted:

A MAN PURSUED. - SAID TO BE THE MURDERER.

In the course of conversation (says the journalist) the secretary mentioned the fact that the murderer had no doubt been disturbed in his work, as about a quarter to one o'clock on Sunday morning he was seen- or, at least, a man whom the public prefer to regard as the murderer- being chased by another man along Fairclough-street, which runs across Berner-street close to the Club, and which is intersected on the right by Providence-street, Brunswick-street, and Christian-st., and on the left by Batty-street and Grove-street, the [two latter?] [?] up into Commercial-road. The man pursued escaped, however, and the secretary of the Club cannot remember the name of the man who gave chase, but he is not a member of their body. Complaint is also made [?] [?] [?] there was experienced in obtaining a policeman, and it is alleged that from the time the body was discovered fifteen minutes had elapsed before a constable could be [?] from Commercial-road. This charge against the police, however, requires confirmation. There is, notwithstanding the number who have visited the scene, a complete absence of excitement, although naturally [?] fresh addition to the already formidable list of mysterious murders forms the general subject of conversation.

The journalist claims to be interviewing the secretary of the club, we know that at the time of the murder William Wess was the secretary.
This story related by Wess is evidence that he was NOT the interpreter used by Schwartz.

Highly likely that Wess was not the interpreter, and thereby given away the link between Schwartz and the club.
However, that doesn't lead to the inescapable conclusion that Wess was mostly ignorant of the truth.
Can you imagine what it would have looked like if Wess had essentially repeated Schwartz' story?
Of course he has to give a different story, otherwise it would be obvious to all that Schwartz had given the details of it, directly to Wess.
Had that occurred, it would be obvious enough that Schwartz was not a stranger to the club at all.
Did Schwartz say something like this, when interviewed at the station?...

Oh, by the way Mr Abberline, I'm actually a member of the Berner street club.

Apparently not, so via what pathway does Wess come to know the 'man pursued' story?
Did multiple club members really witness a man being chased by another up Fairclough, and toward Grove street?
How did the singers in the club come to notice this event, but no one else in Berner or Fairclough streets noticed a thing?
How could the club witnesses have supposed the man was a murderer, without discovering a body, and before Diemschitz arrives?
Seems pretty clear that Wess - the Anarchist propagandist - was making the whole thing up.
An obvious question being - to what end?
Another obvious question is; if Wess made up his story, and Wess got the gist of the story from Schwartz, did Schwartz make up his story also?

The interpreter knew Schwartz's story, that he suspected he was being chased by another man. So, the interpreter knew the man being chased was not the murderer, it was Schwartz. However, Wess (above) does use the time given by Schwartz - 12:45. So, what we appear to have here is a third-hand story by an unknown witness who saw Schwartz being chased by another unknown individual. This witness did not know who was being chased therefore, the witness was not the interpreter who knew Schwartz's story.
Which means, the interpreter was not William Wess.
This story has somehow been merged with the escapades of Diemshutz & Kozebrodski (shouting "murder", "police") running east along Faiclough street.

These comments are a classic example of falling into the trap of understanding events in terms of little stories - something that I warned against in the other thread.
Wess is claiming to relate the event as given to him by one or more club members, who (supposedly) witnessed the event from their own point of view.
It is not legitimate to say that this or these witnesses got the story wrong, because there is no story!
Israel Schwartz does not own the event, just as Louis Diemschitz does not own the 1 am timeslot.
It would be just as valid (though still arbitrary) to call the story related by Wess, the real story, and Schwartz' telling of it to be the muddled version - actually more valid, in the sense that Schwartz is outnumbered.
The club witnesses - if assumed to be real ones - have just as much claim on the event as Israel Schwartz.
If they suppose the man pursued was the murderer, then that's the data we're working with.
However, if reason dictates that the unknown witness was not in a position to suppose that the man pursued was the murderer, then either that witness was hopelessly confused - Stride wasn't even dead at that point- or Wess was lying.
Which is it?

Perhaps, because Schwartz ran the opposite way, west towards Backchurch Lane, then south towards the railway arch?

Let's hope so, or Schwartz is in desperate trouble.
Okay, so let's assume Schwartz goes down Fairclough, but toward Backchurch Lane, instead.
According to the Star report, that is where Mr & Mrs Schwartz are moving to, so safe to say that the Star was correct to say that Schwartz fled to his new lodgings.
Therefore the multiple railway arches are irrelevant.
But now we have to wonder; if Schwartz now lives in Backchurch Lane (as of Oct 1), was the address given to Abberline - 22 Ellen street - a lie?
Regardless, who gave the Star man Schwartz' real address - or at least an address at which he could be found - and why?
Furthermore, if his address is actually something in Backchurch Lane (probably #22), he should be easy enough to find, or the police could just ask the Star, for example.
In that case, why doesn't a policeman just stroll down from Leman street, knock on the Schwartz' door, and hand him or her the inquest summons?
Or is it that Schwartz does not actually live at Backchurch Lane or Ellen street?

Now why would a non-English speaking man come forward to the police to give a statement about an assault, and then start providing fake addresses?
Considering all the police protection given Lawende, the contrast with Schwartz is quite striking.
Schwartz should have had detectives around him, night and day - so where are they?
Another obvious question in relation to Schwartz real address; if the police are having trouble finding him, why not talk to the person who acted as interpreter, probably twice?
Surely that person would either know, or know someone who knows, and if neither, the situation becomes extremely suspicious.

Yet another issue this raises, is which version of Schwartz' account is the correct one?
People seem to believe that Schwartz had been out for the day, while his wife moved to the new address, and those details come from the Star.
If Schwartz and Pipeman are not seen by Spooner, then Schwartz probably ran to his new lodgings, so the Star would be correct on those details too.
So why stop there?
Let's also say that the Star's Knifeman, is closer to the truth than Abberline's Pipeman - and if not why not?
Is it because Schwartz' story is marginally credible as it is, and we don't want to make things worse?