Jack's Escape from Mitre Square

[JeffHamm]

It isn't even reasonable to expect a prostitute or her client to come forward and admit to what they were doing.

Hi Wickerman,

Except we know Pearly Poll did in the case of Tabram, and that was before the panic. It would be entirely in their interest to come forward to aid JtR's capture. Now, that being said, it doesn't guarantee they would, but as we've already seen it happen under reduced circumstances it's not unreasonable to suggest there was a greater probability of the same now. But I agree, there are lots of reasons why they might not, and the absence of evidence is not the same as evidence of absence.

- Jeff

[Wickerman]

Hi Wickerman,

It's described in the A-Z as covered, and so is the passage from Mitre Square to St. James Place (in the "uniditified witness or suspects in Mitre Square" entry I believe). Not sure where A-Z got that information but that's where I got the information from.

- Jeff

Hi Jeff, yes I think the A-Z is wrong on that point, though the description is given in the press.
One side of the Church Passage wall had tall windows, this is the only picture I know of this passage.
Not a design that lends itself to including a roof over the passage.

[Joshua Rogan]

The 1887 Ordnance Survey Map does not show Church Passage as covered.

There's also an earlier map, I think from 1873?, that does not show Church Passage as covered either.

Nor does the 1887 Goad map. Although it is fairly narrow so may have given a little shelter. But St James' Passage is shown partly covered.

If Kate and Jack did walk past Blenkinsop, might they have entered the square only to hear the approaching footsteps of Watkins, and retreated up Church Passage to await his departure?

Strangely, these days St James' Passage seems to be known as Mitre Passage, and Church Passage is now St James' Passage. Anyone know when this happened, or why?

[JeffHamm]

Hi Jeff, yes I think the A-Z is wrong on that point, though the description is given in the press.
One side of the Church Passage wall had tall windows, this is the only picture I know of this passage.
Not a design that lends itself to including a roof over the passage.

Hi Wickerman,

Ah, fair enough. I think I may have seen it in the press too, which could be where A-Z got that detail, but as you say, looks like that's an error.

- Jeff

[Wickerman]

Here is the 1887 O.S.M. showing Church Passage open, whereas the exit to St. James Place is via a covered passage (part of Heseltine WHSE).

[Wickerman]

Hi Wickerman,

Except we know Pearly Poll did in the case of Tabram, and that was before the panic. It would be entirely in their interest to come forward to aid JtR's capture. Now, that being said, it doesn't guarantee they would, but as we've already seen it happen under reduced circumstances it's not unreasonable to suggest there was a greater probability of the same now. But I agree, there are lots of reasons why they might not, and the absence of evidence is not the same as evidence of absence.

- Jeff

Hi Jeff.

Prostitutes were sick of soldiers taking advantage of them. Besides, it seemed Pearly Poll was making a joke about the whole affair.

[Wickerman]

Hi Wickerman,

Ah, fair enough. I think I may have seen it in the press too, which could be where A-Z got that detail, but as you say, looks like that's an error.

- Jeff

The architecture looks like it is different to the 1887 O.S.M.

[JeffHamm]

Hi Jeff.

Prostitutes were sick of soldiers taking advantage of them. Besides, it seemed Pearly Poll was making a joke about the whole affair.

Well, coming forward to make a joke seems even less probable given the danger of incriminating herself (the inquest testimony she gives starts with her being cautioned on that point - which, sadly, seems to suggest there were no guarantees of "immunity from prosecution" given to ignore charges of prostitution from witnesses providing evidence with regards to murder. But maybe there was no legal option at the time for granting such things? That's well outside my range of knowledge.

Anyway, I don't think she was making a joke of it, but rather, she was probably intoxicated at the time, had a poor memory of the event anyway (as until she learned of Martha's murder the next, it would just be another typical exchange), and was torn between getting involved and hiding from it. Regardless, she did come forward in the end, although given the time she and Martha parted ways, and the apparent time of Martha's murder, has what appears to be a couple hours I think gap, the soldiers may have had nothing to do with it at all. But that's a different topic of discussion.

Basically, just saying it doesn't look like a prostitute coming forward to aid the investigation is entirely out of the question, but I agree with your point as there are reasons which also mean it's not guaranteed they would.

- Jeff

Thanks for the map above too. Nice. Curious, to the lower right of Mitre Square, near where Eddowes was found, there appears to be a passage with a 90 turn upwards at the end? But it's got a thin line at the Mitre Square end? Was that an open area (i.e. if PC Harvey were comming up Church Passage, would JtR have been able to back into that, admittedly cornering himself but at least getting behind cover, and then when PC H. turns back down Church Passage, JtR could slip along the wall and out into Mitre Street? Or is the thin line indicating a fence, so that passage would be blocked off?

[Wickerman]

Well, coming forward to make a joke seems even less probable given the danger of incriminating herself

She wasn't taking the whole thing serious at the barracks, then she adopts the posture as if she is inspecting the soldiers.
The Inspector was not too impressed with her attitude.

[Monty]

I don't think that's necessarily true Sam, anymore than the young couple seen outside the board school on Berner Street intended to go inside.

As for the police being charged to look out for couples, I believe they were charged in that manner Trevor at that time. I still don't know how that might translate into 3 plainclothed detectives looking in alleys though. There doesn't seem to be any compelling reason to have detectives searching alleys near Mitre after 1am.

Plain clothed patrols were a common thing for the period.

Monty

[Monty]

Church Passage was uncovered in 1888, a d remained so.

St James Passage was cover in 1888.

However in the 1980s Church Passage was oddly renamed St James Passage. And St James Passage became Mitre Passage.

This may have drawn the confusion.

Monty

[JeffHamm]

She wasn't taking the whole thing serious at the barracks, then she adopts the posture as if she is inspecting the soldiers.
The Inspector was not too impressed with her attitude.

Ah, yes, at that point, I thought you meant coming forward in the first place was a lark, and she was making up her story of being with Martha on the night of her murder.

- Jeff

[Wickerman]

Thanks for the map above too. Nice. Curious, to the lower right of Mitre Square, near where Eddowes was found, there appears to be a passage with a 90 turn upwards at the end? But it's got a thin line at the Mitre Square end? Was that an open area (i.e. if PC Harvey were comming up Church Passage, would JtR have been able to back into that, admittedly cornering himself but at least getting behind cover, and then when PC H. turns back down Church Passage, JtR could slip along the wall and out into Mitre Street? Or is the thin line indicating a fence, so that passage would be blocked off?

Hi Jeff.

The detail you referred to in the above quote, about the corner where Eddowes was found. There are press sketches which show a fence & a gate.



Coincidentally, I just came across a newspaper sketch that shows Jack escaping through that same gate..


IPN 13 Oct 1888.

I thought, why even make this sketch when they know about the GSG and the expected escape route?
The details from the inquest were published the day before (12th), perhaps news travels slow on a weekend.

[Wickerman]

Church Passage was uncovered in 1888, a d remained so.

St James Passage was cover in 1888.

However in the 1980s Church Passage was oddly renamed St James Passage. And St James Passage became Mitre Passage.

This may have drawn the confusion.

Monty

Hi Monty.
Hope you are well.

Ok, are you saying Church Passage was covered prior to some time in 1888, when it was uncovered?
If the press reports from Oct/Nov 1888 suggest it was covered, but the Goads Map shows it uncovered. There isn't a lot of time to make that map at the end of the year.
Also, I have an 1873 map that shows it uncovered.

Can you recall what exactly, beyond those press reports, leads us to believe Church Passage was covered, at any time?

[jerryd]

Hi Jeff.

The detail you referred to in the above quote, about the corner where Eddowes was found. There are press sketches which show a fence & a gate.



Coincidentally, I just came across a newspaper sketch that shows Jack escaping through that same gate..


IPN 13 Oct 1888.

I thought, why even make this sketch when they know about the GSG and the expected escape route?
The details from the inquest were published the day before (12th), perhaps news travels slow on a weekend.

Thanks Wick,

Not sure if I've seen the sketch of the murderer escaping through the gate leading to the courtyard of #5 Mitre Street. #5 Mitre Street was the childhood home of Franklin Sydney King. David King, his father, also had a long lease on a property leading into St James passage on King Street as well as a property fronting Goulston Street and one on Billiter Street not far from Mitre Square. Alice McKenzie was found dead practically on the doorstep of another David King property in Castle Alley.