The Apron Again

[lynn cates]

mental condition

Hello Neil Thanks for that. Of course, that would depend on his mental acuity which, in turn, would depend upon savoury pies and stale beer consumed. (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[Trevor Marriott]

Eddowes' clothes were obviously in disarray when her body was found and, according to procedure, Collard did not closely examine the body itself; leaving that for Dr. Gordon to do upon his arrival. Gordon did notice it was still attached to the body by its strings. "...Found outside her dress"... that would be the normal place for an apron to be and that would probably be the extent of Collard's observations at that point.

If the overwhelming evidence that Catherine Eddowes was wearing an apron when she was killed and mutilated in Mitre Square is twisted around and disregarded like this, then there is nothing in this case that could ever be determined and anyone can make anything they wish out of any part of it... Which seems to be the motive for some for some inexplicable reason.

The witnesses referred to in Simon's post were certainly Lawende and Levy. Where had they been in the past 10 days? They were found by the house to house police enquiries conducted in the days after the murder; which is often the case- even now- during investigations. They may not have understood the importance of their sighting until questioned and taken to examine the clothing of the deceased.

I think you will find the paragraph referred to was in relation to what happened at the mortuary.

[Hunter]

Hi Trevor,

Yes that is correct. Collard took inventory of Kate's belongings after they were removed by the medicos and/or their assistants. But, in describing it, he was probably relating to where he saw it in situ for the benefit of the court. He also described the items he and his men picked up at the scene.

After Gordon and Sequeira left with the body for the mortuary, Collard stayed behind to secure the neighborhood until McWilliams arrived. Kate's belongings were likely removed by the time Collard arrived at Golden Lane to take the inventory.

Simon,

Thank you for your reply and thoughts. Outside of my supposition, I don't really have an explanation for what was related in the Times about the two witnesses.

[Trevor Marriott]

Hi Trevor,

Yes that is correct. Collard took inventory of Kate's belongings after they were removed by the medicos and/or their assistants. But, in describing it, he was probably relating to where he saw it in situ for the benefit of the court. He also described the items he and his men picked up at the scene.

After Gordon and Sequeira left with the body for the mortuary, Collard stayed behind to secure the neighborhood until McWilliams arrived. Kate's belongings were likely removed by the time Collard arrived at Golden Lane to take the inventory.

Simon,

Thank you for your reply and thoughts. Outside of my supposition, I don't really have an explanation for what was related in the Times about the two witnesses.

Hunter
We are back with how the relevant quotes are interpreted you use the words probably and likely that may be your own personal understanding but not necessarily the interpatation of others.

His statement came in the context of what was happening at the mortuary and was made for ongoing continuity. But Dr Browns is interesting !

[Dr. Brown]: "When the body arrived at Golden Lane mortuary some of the blood was dispersed through the removal of the body to the mortuary. The clothes were taken off carefully from the body, a piece of the deceased's ear dropped from the clothing."
Inspector Collard listed her possessions and clothes. There was no apron, except for "one piece of old white apron".

Now according to the above that could be interpreted that she wasnt wearing an apron but in possession of an apron piece.

Oh what a tangled web they weave these fine upstanding officials who were directly involved in this. I think the only thing they all agreed on was that these women were dead

[Phil Carter]

Hello Trevor,

i must say that I agree with you here, a tangle. It's ALMOST like the officials TRIED to show agreement deliberately...but the more they said the more they confuse. It raises the obvious question... Was this confusion used?

Hello Simon,

Identified SO clearly by a white apron? Unless I am missing something here, wearing a white apron outside her clothes whilst out walking seems SO Unusual, that this person is identified by it. That in itself is striking- its hardly flourescent green.

Collard called it "a piece of old white apron" . Strange how "old white" becomes so identifiable in poorly lit streets- isnt it.

It reminds me of the Mary Kelly saga. Wrong time, wrong place, def, identified. Hmmm

Tricky? Nice description.

Best wishes

Phil

[lynn cates]

forerunner of fish net hose

Hello Phil.

"wearing a white apron outside her clothes whilst out walking seems SO Unusual"

Indeed. But even odder to be soliciting in such. Ah, well--the male libido. Who can fathom it? (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[GregBaron]

Fathom?

Indeed. But even odder to be soliciting in such. Ah, well--the male libido. Who can fathom it? (heh-heh)

Lynn, are you suggesting you don't find a frumpy middle aged harlot dressed in a white apron to be attractive? This was the bikini of the Victorian age. C'mon get with it.................As an old friend once told me of college.........this is as good as it gets....



Greg

[Hunter]

Outside of the written depositions, each paper sometimes had different versions of the verbal testimony. In regards to Insp. Collard and his participation at the morgue, I earlier suggested that he might have arrived after the body had been stripped. This was based upon the written deposition and what was reproduced in the Times. The version in the Daily Telegraph (from Casebook press reports) gives Collard as stating he was present when the body was stripped:

'The body was not touched until the arrival shortly afterwords of Dr. Brown. The medical gentlemen examined the body, and in my presence Sergeant Jones picked up from the foot way by the left side of the deceased three small black buttons, such as are generally used for boots, a small metal button, a common metal thimble, and a small penny mustard tin containing two pawn-tickets. They were handed to me. The doctors remained until the arrival of the ambulance, and saw the body placed in the conveyance. It was then taken to the mortuary, and stripped by Mr. Davis, the mortuary keeper, in presence of the two doctors and myself. I have a list of articles of clothing more or less stained with blood and cut.'

Inspector Collard listed her possessions and clothes. There was no apron, except for "one piece of old white apron".

Now according to the above that could be interpreted that she wasnt wearing an apron but in possession of an apron piece.

Could you provide the source for the statement that there was no apron? Or is this your interpretation? Obviously if her apron had been cut, what was left would be a 'piece' since the whole no longer existed.

[mariab]

"wearing a white apron outside her clothes whilst out walking seems SO Unusual"
Indeed. But even odder to be soliciting in such. Ah, well--the male libido. Who can fathom it? (heh-heh)

LOL. It's the dirndl style of dressing. Like a cheerleader in a really, really, really long, thick skirt.
Jane Coram once said that such an apron would have been worn for keeping warm (instead of a coat?).

[Roy Corduroy]

Jane Coram once said that such an apron would have been worn for keeping warm.

Yes Maria, but that was three or four apron threads ago. We've now entered a Beam Me Up Scotty force field.

Roy

[mariab]

Yes Maria, but that was three or four apron threads ago. We've now entered a Beam Me Up Scotty force field.

Agree, and we should attempt skirting the issue. (Skirting the apron.)

[lynn cates]

attire

Hello Greg. Don't French maids wear . . . oh, never mind.

Cheers.
LC

[mariab]

A tablier, Lynn?

[Trevor Marriott]

Outside of the written depositions, each paper sometimes had different versions of the verbal testimony. In regards to Insp. Collard and his participation at the morgue, I earlier suggested that he might have arrived after the body had been stripped. This was based upon the written deposition and what was reproduced in the Times. The version in the Daily Telegraph (from Casebook press reports) gives Collard as stating he was present when the body was stripped:

'The body was not touched until the arrival shortly afterwords of Dr. Brown. The medical gentlemen examined the body, and in my presence Sergeant Jones picked up from the foot way by the left side of the deceased three small black buttons, such as are generally used for boots, a small metal button, a common metal thimble, and a small penny mustard tin containing two pawn-tickets. They were handed to me. The doctors remained until the arrival of the ambulance, and saw the body placed in the conveyance. It was then taken to the mortuary, and stripped by Mr. Davis, the mortuary keeper, in presence of the two doctors and myself. I have a list of articles of clothing more or less stained with blood and cut.'




Could you provide the source for the statement that there was no apron? Or is this your interpretation? Obviously if her apron had been cut, what was left would be a 'piece' since the whole no longer existed.

Dr Browns inquest testimony

[Trevor Marriott]

Hi Hunter,

The witnesses in my post saw Eddowes on her own. Alone. Wearing her unmistakeable white apron. Two hundred yards down the street from Church Passage. At 1.30 am.

How could they have been Lawende & Co.?

It sure is a mystery.

Regards,

Simon

Of course to add to that the apron piece or whaetever you want to refer to it as was described as being old and dirty perhaps not visibly white enough to have been seen from afar.