The Apron Again

[Fleetwood Mac]

Inquest testimony of PC Alfred Long

Coroner - Before going did you hear that a murder had been committed?
Long - Yes. It is common knowledge that two murders have been perpetrated.

Coroner - Which did you hear of?
Long- I heard of the murder in the City. There were rumours of another, but not certain.

Now this is in relation to Long having just searched the dwellings after finding the apron piece and about to leave to report his find.

So at 2.55am he is aware of a murder. Not at 2.20am. Therefore, having heard of a murder, he was more vigilant at 2.50am. He saw no reason at 2.20am.

Monty

Hello Monty,

A hurdle remains in that he didn't connect the apron to Eddowes, and it follows thus he was not expecting to find anything there in relation to 'the murder in the city'. In other words, there was no reason for him to be more vigilant in Goulston Street.

Also, did his beat include checking every doorway? That's a fair old beat. If not, then why check that doorway?

[Fleetwood Mac]

Hello All. In looking over today's posts on this thread I am struck by:

1. The fact that those posters who often remove the police from criticism, criticise them now.

2. The fact that those posters who often subject the police to criticism, remove them from criticism now.

Not making any points here, it's just that I feel like Alice.

Cheers.
LC

Hello Lynn,

My view is that the police generally do a good job in difficult circumstances.

But, the police aren't beyond corruption, deceipt, error etc.

In any profession there are unethical and/or unprofessional members.

I mean, we know this because we have Whitechapel policemen being sacked for being drunk on duty.

They're not above reproach, but I do agree that accusations need supporting with evidence, which is why I haven't seen a good enough argument to convince me that Long was mistaken.

[Fleetwood Mac]

I have described what I feel is the likeliest scenario. That is my opinion and I consider it, at least, an informed opinion.

I have studied the Ripper case and the Victorian police for decades (starting in 1961) and I was a 'sharp end' police officer from 1969 until 1997. What I state, however, I am quick to point out is merely my opinion. You are not obliged to (and obviouly don't) accept my opinion and that is fine by me. I do not presume to tell anyone to accept anything. But, like you, I am within my rights to give my opinion and what I think of other opinions.

Also I did not say 'he simply skipped it once but not twice'. Let's please have a bit of reality here. I am sure that he missed checking many doorways etc. from time to time during his night patrols, as most police officers would have done. It was only when something untoward occurred that they were likely to be caught out.

That's fair enough, Stewart.

I'm sure your opinion carries weight in many areas due to your knowledge of the subject.

In my view, this particular opinion we're discussing is not taking support from your knowledge; not looking in that particular doorway at 2.20 but looking at 2.55 is a hunch, possibly flowing from another hunch that he couldn't have dropped it after 2.20. There was no reason for him to be extra vigilant at those buildings at 2.55 (when he did find something relating to the murder he didn't even connect it to the murder - that's how much he was looking out for something to do with Eddowes).

[mariab]

I don't think the characters in 'From Hell' were sleeping on ropes outside, Maria. They were most surely in a doss-house.

So the rope was considered necessary also inside?
Thank you for correcting me, I'll check it out on the DVD when I find a minute.

[John Bennett]

So the rope was considered necessary also inside?
Thank you for correcting me, I'll check it out on the DVD when I find a minute.

I don't think I've ever heard of this sleeping arrangement outside and I'm not sure where you got that from. These so called 'tupenny hangs' were available for those who couldn't afford the full price of a bed. Some would have it that they are also an urban myth, but there you go...

Anyway, off-topic, sorry.

[mariab]

I first saw it in From Hell (the movie), and I was under the impression the hangs were inside of some yard with no roof, but I could be wrong. I'll check it out. Thank you.
This is slightly thread-related if one considers earlier posts in this thread where the C5 were presented as “living on the streets“.

[Monty]

Hello Monty,

A hurdle remains in that he didn't connect the apron to Eddowes, and it follows thus he was not expecting to find anything there in relation to 'the murder in the city'. In other words, there was no reason for him to be more vigilant in Goulston Street.

Also, did his beat include checking every doorway? That's a fair old beat. If not, then why check that doorway?

True, he was fearful another murder occured.

There's no hurdle, he was told to keep a look out, in all doorways on his beat, alleys etc.

Monty

[curious]

As a bit of a knife person...While a table knife would indeed be round-ended and not up to the job......It was very common for knives to be ground-down for other purposes.....so while still identifiable as a table knife,it may have had a point...We've got a couple that were my Gran's!
Steve

Hi, Steve,
How sensible. Wouldn't the men have had some means of sharpening their razors? So Eddowes would have had access.

On the other hand, reading through the list of her possessions:

Pair of men's lace up boots, mohair laces. Right boot repaired with red thread

Brown ribbed knee stockings, darned at the feet with white cotton

1 piece of blue and white shirting, 3 cornered


With that kind of description, it makes sense to me that IF the knife had been altered, say with a sharp point or edge, that would have been noted.

We can never be certain of course, but that is my conclusion.

Very sharp and sensible, though, and who knows you may be absolutely right.

[curious]

Hello Velma.

"I had actually wondered if Jack might have lived in the Wentworth buildings."

Here is an interesting thought experiment that involves such a hypothesis.

1. Get a map of the Tower Hamlets area, including, of course, Aldgate and St. Georges-in-the-East.

2. Place an 'X' (or other marker) at the Wentworth buildings.

3. Now place another marker at the place of your favourite Liz sighting--many would choose the pub identified by Gardner and Best.

4. Now place yet a third marker by the IWMEC.

5. Allow the "brush off" thesis to be correct and let Liz's companion head north towards Commercial rd.

6. Next, assume the Schwartz story true, and BS man heading south where he confronts Liz.

7. Let BS man kill Liz and head towards Aldgate. Place another marker there.

8. Now have this same chap meet Kate and go with her through Church Passage into Mitre sq. where he does her to death.

9. Next, let him escape through St. James and go to a safe place for half an hour or so.

10. Let him re-emerge and head towards home, apron piece in tow.

11. Let him drop the piece at Goulston and chalk the graffito.

12. Let him enter his room and gloat over jobs well done.

13. Finally connect all the markers and give approximate times for each event, along with distances traversed.

What do you discover? See why I am not a fan of the traditional story line?

Cheers.
LC

Lordy, Lynn,
this gives me a headache this early in the morning. (Was "Lordy" used as a "By-Word" in your part of the world many years ago? I think of an aunt or two when that word comes to mind.)

I'll have to try your mapping, but having never been a fan of the traditional thinking . . . it'll be tough.

Velma

[curious]

[QUOTE=Rubyretro;199369]It's pointless for us to experiment ourselves because we don't have all the elements.
For example, Catherine Eddowes most probably didn't have a brand spanking new apron, and she might well have got it from a pawn shop. it might have been very worn and the fibres very soft. For example denim is very tough
material, but when it has been washed and worn many times then you can easily rip it by hand, let alone a knife.
[QUOTE]

Hi, Ruby,
I suggested trying a table knife and flimsy material as a very informal experiment.

Naturally, we could never replicate anything.

I agree that her apron would likely have been easy to tear by hand -- after you got it started -- once you got past the hem and/or waistband.

But since the material was said to be cut, it seems to me (I'm sorry to keep harping on this) that a table knife could not work.

But an informal experiment with material and a table knife might be enlightening and give a better "feel" for the possibilities.

[lynn cates]

technique for blokes

Hello Maria.

"Yeah, makes sense that a prostitute would need wipes to wipe off blood in her trade. Must have been engaged in pretty extreme stuff."

Not necessarily. I have seen elsewhere a discussion with a Victorian prostitute concerning her "technique." VERY tame; no penetration (sorry).

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

reply

Hello Tom.

"You’re thinking of an unsourced witness telling a press man they saw a man sitting on steps wiping his hands following the Stride murder. They likely saw this, but there’s absolutely no reason to suppose it was the killer (who would not have been bloodied) and was probably a man eating his dinner."

Completely agree. But surprising how many accept this.

"That’s the cartel view."

Oops. Exit to search for pith helmet.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

not deserted

Hello Neil.

"I’m more curious about who was telling him these rumors on his beat"

Indeed. Or any of the other rumours that night.

Time was I thought the streets nearly deserted. Now I find more people about than previously imagined.

Wish we knew the two blokes "cleared" by Halse.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

views

Hello Mac.

"My view is that the police generally do a good job in difficult circumstances."

Completely agree.

"In any profession there are unethical and/or unprofessional members."

Don't I know that. I am thinking of my own curious profession.

Cheers.
LC

[mariab]

Not necessarily. I have seen elsewhere a discussion with a Victorian prostitute concerning her "technique." VERY tame; no penetration (sorry).

No need to apologize, but I don't get the need to wipe out blood generating from “tame“ play. Maybe I'm too innocent?
Oh, now I get it. You misunderstood my post #317. It was meant in irony.

You’re thinking of an unsourced witness telling a press man they saw a man sitting on steps wiping his hands following the Stride murder. They likely saw this, but there’s absolutely no reason to suppose it was the killer (who would not have been bloodied) and was probably a man eating his dinner.

Lynn, incidentally this man sitting on the steps happens to be Fisherman's suspect for the Stride murder (and Stride's alleged mystery lover on the side). Small world, eh?

By the by Lynn, just ordered the stuff from N.Y. – 22 issues, 88 foglii. Hope your scanner can handle A3 format. These babies are BIG.