The Apron Again

[Tom_Wescott]

I do not see how there is any 'unchallenged wisdom', everyone has their own views and most are not shy in giving those views. I certainly do not go unchallenged.

I believe that I was walking the beat before you were born therefore I think that I may speak with more authority than you on police related matters, pehaps you think that I am wrong? I have also seen the Victorian Metropolitan Police disciplinary books and these are quite an education.

Do not put words into my mouth. I did not say that 'those of us [you] who aren't/weren't cops should just shut up', I never have said that therefore I resent you saying that.

There is much useful and valuable input from many who have no police associations and I would be stupid not to recognise that.

Hi Stewart. I wasn’t pointing to you or singling you out on this. More than books, I was thinking of years of message board exchange on the subject, much of which (as far as I’m concerned) didn’t involve you. I’m aware you subscribe to the same idea (re: Long) but I was not singling you out. Regarding the other matter, it was more or less light-hearted, although you must appreciate that when debating, if you say “I’m a cop and you’re not s surely I know more about it than you”, or something to that effect, it’s essentially a debate killer. Everyone already knows you’re an authority on police matters and I’m not challenging you at all when you say you saw what you saw. I even concede you might be correct in regards to PC Long. But somewhere along the way, this unsupported possibility has become in most minds a probability or even accepted as fact.

The procedure when a murder had occurred was to issue a telegram to all the stations within the area, including those on the Mets patch and visa versa. I assume, after that, that the runners and Beat Sergeants went out and notified those on the beat, with notifications and instructions to be more vigilant.

Thanks for that. I know you research this stuff and are very familiar with police procedure. But I’m talking word of mouth. PC Long seems to have become aware of the murders via ‘rumour’ (his word) which indicates he was aware of it BEFORE being officially notified.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Stewart P Evans]

Perfectly entitled

...
In my view, this particular opinion we're discussing is not taking support from your knowledge; not looking in that particular doorway at 2.20 but looking at 2.55 is a hunch, possibly flowing from another hunch that he couldn't have dropped it after 2.20. There was no reason for him to be extra vigilant at those buildings at 2.55 (when he did find something relating to the murder he didn't even connect it to the murder - that's how much he was looking out for something to do with Eddowes).

You are perfectly entitled to your view.

Not looking in the doorway at 2.20 a.m. is not 'a hunch', it is a reasoned interpretation based on the known facts and my own knowledge and experience. I appreciate that does not, necessarily, make me right but it is my reasoned opinion. Looking at 2.55 a.m. is not a hunch, obviously, as he found the piece of apron.

There was every reason to be extra vigilant at all times as Long had been drafted in to H Division, from A Division, to supplement the local men because of the murders that had occurred. Extra vigilance was the whole point of him working in H Division and not his own.

He would, no doubt, have been under instruction to check all doorways or recesses that may have concealed a person out late at night. The fact that he spotted the piece of apron at 2.55 a.m. would obviously beg the question as to whether or not it was there when he checked to doorway on his previous round, if he had checked it.

[Stewart P Evans]

Perfectly entitled

Post deleted, entered in error.

[Simon Wood]

Hi Curious,

Sorry. I wasn't aiming for you. I hope you had an ejector seat.

The really interesting thing about this newspaper story which emphasized the fact of Eddowes wearing a white apron is its timing.

It appeared on the second day of Eddowes' inquest, at which the whole matter of the apron was discussed.

Where had the two witnesses who saw her at 1.30 am been for the past ten days? And why would they have automatically assumed that the woman they saw wearing a white apron was Eddowes?

The apron story has more holes than a tramp's vest.

Regards,

Simon

[John Bennett]

According to Frederick Gordon Brown at the Eddowes inquest:

[Coroner] Was your attention called to the portion of the apron that was found in Goulston-street? -

Yes. I fitted that portion which was spotted with blood to the remaining portion, which was still attached by the strings to the body.

JB

Hello JB,

Ah, yes, but the pockets were attached by strings. Could he have mistaken pocket strings for apron strings in the general mess? And why no mention of an apron in the list of clothing?

Cheers,
C4

That's not for me to say, really. I just posted the quote. If anybody wants to debate it, then fair enough!

[Trevor Marriott]

Ok Simon, shot down in flames again! If you can believe what you read in the papers, of course!

Best wishes,
C4

Of for that matter what any of the other main players have said

[Trevor Marriott]

Forgive me if this has already been dealt with in this long thread, but does anyone know if it is clarified whether the piece thrown away came from an apron she was wearing or the old piece of apron mentioned as being wrapped up in red flannel which she was carrying in one of her "pockets"? An old piece is perhaps more likely to have a seam from a repair methinks.

C4

A very good point Inspector Collard states " states "I produce a portion of the apron which the deceased was "apparently" wearing which had been cut through and was found outside her dress."

[curious4]

Hi All,

Evening News, 11th October 1888—

A great deal of fresh evidence will be given to the adjourned inquest, which will be held to-day, at the City Coroner's Court, Golden-lane, upon the body of the Mitre-square victim. Since the adjournment, Shelton, the Coroner's officer, has, with the assistance of the City Police authorities, discovered several new witnesses, including the daughter of the deceased, who was found to be occupying a respectable situation as a domestic in the neighbourhood of Kennington. She states that they saw the deceased standing at the corner of Duke-street, Aldgate, a few minutes' walk from Mitre-square. This was as near as they can recollect about half-post one o'clock, and she was then alone. They recognized her on account of the white apron she was wearing.

The story of Annie Phillips seeing her mother at 1.30 am on the morning of her murder appears to have been the result of sloppy sub-editing by the Evening News.

Here is the story as it appeared in The Times, same day. Note that Kennington, in south London, became Kensington, in west London.

"A good deal of fresh evidence will be given at the adjourned inquest, which will be held to-day at the City Coroner's Court, Golden-lane, upon the body of the Mitre-square victim. Since the adjournment, Shelton, the coroner's officer, has, with the assistance of the City police authorities, discovered several new witnesses, including the daughter of the deceased, who was found to be occupying a respectable situation as a domestic in the neighbourhood of Kensington. She states that she had not seen her mother for some time, and certainly did not see her on the night she met her death.

"Two witnesses have also been found who state that they saw the deceased standing at the corner of Duke-street, Aldgate, a few minutes' walk from Mitre-square. This was as near as they can recollect about half-past 1 o'clock, and she was then alone. They recognized her on account of the white apron she was wearing."

This report makes it sound as though the wearing of a white apron was unique to Catherine Eddowes.

Make of it what you will.

Regards,

Simon

Ok Simon, shot down in flames again! If you can believe what you read in the papers, of course!

Best wishes,
C4

[curious4]

According to Frederick Gordon Brown at the Eddowes inquest:

[Coroner] Was your attention called to the portion of the apron that was found in Goulston-street? -

Yes. I fitted that portion which was spotted with blood to the remaining portion, which was still attached by the strings to the body.

JB

Hello JB,

Ah, yes, but the pockets were attached by strings. Could he have mistaken pocket strings for apron strings in the general mess? And why no mention of an apron in the list of clothing?


Cheers,
C4

[Simon Wood]

Earlier Eddowes Sighting

Hi All,

Evening News, 11th October 1888—

A great deal of fresh evidence will be given to the adjourned inquest, which will be held to-day, at the City Coroner's Court, Golden-lane, upon the body of the Mitre-square victim. Since the adjournment, Shelton, the Coroner's officer, has, with the assistance of the City Police authorities, discovered several new witnesses, including the daughter of the deceased, who was found to be occupying a respectable situation as a domestic in the neighbourhood of Kennington. She states that they saw the deceased standing at the corner of Duke-street, Aldgate, a few minutes' walk from Mitre-square. This was as near as they can recollect about half-post one o'clock, and she was then alone. They recognized her on account of the white apron she was wearing.

The story of Annie Phillips seeing her mother at 1.30 am on the morning of her murder appears to have been the result of sloppy sub-editing by the Evening News.

Here is the story as it appeared in The Times, same day. Note that Kennington, in south London, became Kensington, in west London.

"A good deal of fresh evidence will be given at the adjourned inquest, which will be held to-day at the City Coroner's Court, Golden-lane, upon the body of the Mitre-square victim. Since the adjournment, Shelton, the coroner's officer, has, with the assistance of the City police authorities, discovered several new witnesses, including the daughter of the deceased, who was found to be occupying a respectable situation as a domestic in the neighbourhood of Kensington. She states that she had not seen her mother for some time, and certainly did not see her on the night she met her death.

"Two witnesses have also been found who state that they saw the deceased standing at the corner of Duke-street, Aldgate, a few minutes' walk from Mitre-square. This was as near as they can recollect about half-past 1 o'clock, and she was then alone. They recognized her on account of the white apron she was wearing."

This report makes it sound as though the wearing of a white apron was unique to Catherine Eddowes.

Make of it what you will.

Regards,

Simon

[John Bennett]

Hello Maria,

Are you quite sure? No apron is mentioned in the list of her clothing, although I have heard it said that she was wearing one and in that case it should have been.

Cheers,
C4

According to Frederick Gordon Brown at the Eddowes inquest:

[Coroner] Was your attention called to the portion of the apron that was found in Goulston-street? -

Yes. I fitted that portion which was spotted with blood to the remaining portion, which was still attached by the strings to the body.

JB

[curious4]

apron

Hello Maria,

Are you quite sure? No apron is mentioned in the list of her clothing, although I have heard it said that she was wearing one and in that case it should have been.

Cheers,
C4

[mariab]

From the one she was wearing, Curious.

[curious4]

Forgive me if this has already been dealt with in this long thread, but does anyone know if it is clarified whether the piece thrown away came from an apron she was wearing or the old piece of apron mentioned as being wrapped up in red flannel which she was carrying in one of her "pockets"? An old piece is perhaps more likely to have a seam from a repair methinks.

C4

[lynn cates]

hmm

Hello Maria.

"Don't recall, but it's in one of Fish's dissertations posted on casebook - quickly available through the Stride page in the Victims page."

Thanks. Sounds vaguely familiar. Must investigate further.

Cheers.
LC