The Apron

[Fleetwood Mac]

Hi Trevor,

Yes, it's not clear how big this apron was.

A half apron or a full apron.

But maybe we can put the pieces together if we understand why CE was wearing an apron.

Options:

1) She was baking cakes in and around Mitre Square.

2) She was protecting her clothes from dirt.

3) She was using it to keep warm.

4) It was a fashion accessory.

5) Jack had an apron fetish. They arranged to meet with CE wearing an apron.

I would go with 2 or 3, and to me that would suggest a full apron.

[Phil H]

if i do, you probably will

STEADY Malcolm - you tryin' to say we're a couple??

Phil

[Malcolm X]

Phil
It has been obvious that reserachers have argued over the apron issue for some time now. Those arguments have been based on what has been written. In order for those to be advanced to the point of proving or disproving either or both I with the help of the medical experts set up the tests.

These tests and the photographic results showed a piece of white cloth which bloodied hands had been wiped on. The test also involved the placing of a uterus which had been removed straight from a living donor, this was also placed in a white cloth and the results photographed. Knife wiping on a white cloth was also a further test and the results of that photographed.

Now all the photograhic results clearly do not match the decsription of the apron piece found in Goulston St. Now with these tests you cannot get much closer to re creating the scenario as is suggested so I can only go with these. I cannot see why people are looking to reject the results.

This whole thread is just going round and round and is going nowhere. Clearly for whatever reason some are so blinkered that they will not accept new aspects of the case and cling desparately to the old issues,

well lets see the photos then, but the trouble is we dont know exactly what the original looked like, but it is said that it looked like a knife/ hands were wiped on it.

to keep the apron small in your pocket and to soak up the max blood, you would put the organ on one side and wrap the cloth around it like a portion of chips

[Malcolm X]

if i do, you probably will

STEADY Malcolm - you tryin' to say we're a couple??

Phil

oh good, you're still smiling

[Tom_Wescott]

Why Berner Street and Mitre Square?

There is NO agreement on the meaning of the graffito (or even of the word Jewes - however spelled); there is no concensus that the killer wrote the words, and certainly no clear or even remote link from Goulston St to berners St.

Well, sure there are. The men of the Berner Street club would convene in Goulston Street to march and picket and head to Mitre Square which was as close as they could get to the Great Synagogue. Also, new Jewish arrivals would line up in Goulston Street for inspection upon coming into the city. It was here the Berner Street men would come to find new recruits and hand out copies of Worker's Friend. Also, as I've pointed out, at least one person from the club (Israel Sunshine) actually lived in the building where the apron was found. But I'm not saying any of this is relevant.

I think the simple answer is that the Ripper left from Berner Street and headed just over into City bounds where he killed a woman on City turf, and smartly chose to leave a portion of her apron back in Met turf. If you just set back for a minute and take the point of view that everything the killer did that night was intentional, you'll get a good idea of what the Ripper was really like, and he wasn't like the illiterate, uneducated, fly-by-your-pants and hope you get lucky schlump that has been pushed on us since the centenial. A guy like that wouldn't have made it to his second murder without being caught. But I appreciate that a large segment of vocal Ripperphiles will never accept that, though I'm not at all saying you're one of those.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Malcolm X]

Hi Trevor,

Yes, it's not clear how big this apron was.

A half apron or a full apron.

But maybe we can put the pieces together if we understand why CE was wearing an apron.

Options:

1) She was baking cakes in and around Mitre Square.

2) She was protecting her clothes from dirt.

3) She was using it to keep warm.

4) It was a fashion accessory.

5) Jack had an apron fetish. They arranged to meet with CE wearing an apron.

I would go with 2 or 3, and to me that would suggest a full apron.

a half apron, cut in half, is still big enough to do the job, i dont know, but couldn't he have also wiped his hands on her clothing.... can someone please check this for me.

she was probably a part time cleaner, or house to house hawking for cleaning work etc.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Hi Phil,

If the killer plonked the organs into the corner of the apron and then hastily wrapped the remainder around them, bandage-style, you'd expect that corner to be the most saturated, with the outer layers remaining dryer, thus protecting his coat lining from any fluids.

All the best,
Ben

P.S. No, it isn't "rubbish", Trevor.

Hi Ben,

I suggested the same.

But, on reflection:

The argument goes that a big piece of cloth was needed to soak up the juices flowing out.

If these juices are flowing as the per the argument, then you would expect other parts of the apron to pick up the residue. The blood wouldn't be as pronounced but it would be there. Think of wrapping a bag of fish and chips. There is grease in the corner; there is grease on the rest of the paper; the grease is more pronounced in the corner where the fish and chips lie.

So, what we'd be saying here is this: a big piece of cloth was needed when actually it wasn't because only the corner was wet, the juices were flowing when actually it wasn't too bad as the outer layers of the cloth were unscathed.

Practically speaking, the blood/juices should have soaked through to the outer layers, not just the corner.

[Fleetwood Mac]

a half apron, cut in half, is still big enough to do the job, i dont know, but couldn't he have also wiped his hands on her clothing.... can someone please check this for me.

she was probably a part time cleaner, or house to house hawking for cleaning work etc.

Good point, Macolm.

I believe she did a spot of cleaning for 'the Jews'.

Again, that would suggest full apron.

[Ben]

Practically speaking, the blood/juices should have soaked through to the outer layers, not just the corner.

It depends how absorbent the material was, Fleets. The organs probably did leave a residual trace on the outer "layers", but they were most conspicuously concentrated on the corner that directly juxtaposed the organs. My point was that the larger the rag, that greater the chances of the killer's clothing remaining gunk-free.

[Fleetwood Mac]

If the murderer is a psychopath Fleetwood, he doesn't think or feel as normal humans do. The preppy murderer in Manhattan some time back returned to the scene of his crime with others and watched from a stoop. Ted Bundy drug a dead body up the stairs of an apartment building in which others lived and drove around with detached heads and hands in his trunk. If Jtr was a psycopath and not a schizophenic, we can't make guesses about his behavior based on what we would do, so yes it's possible he returned to the streets with incriminating evidence on his person. Obviously, based on the murders, this individual did not possess a normal fear factor.

I don't have anything further to add.


Greg

Hi Greg,

A psychopath displays instinct, as we all do.

Bundy may have drove around with body parts, and others may have kept them at home, but the police would have had to have stopped them to work this out, and there was little chance of that happening.

The point with Jack is that it's being suggested that he deliberately walked into a place where the police were stopping people, he walked into that place an hour so after the murder, he walked into that place with incriminating evidence.

In other words, the argument goes that Jack was putting himself into a position where there was a good chance he would be caught and would hang.

Using Ted Bundy as an example, as bizarre as it is, the police would have had no reason to stop him and therefore the risk he was running was minimal (except perhaps a head rolling out the car door or something when he parked up and tried to get out, much to the consternation of Mrs Brown who's only popped out for some fish and is looking forward to a fish pie when she gets home and so she rings CSI Miami to sort it out).

Anyway, do you know of anyone who has pulled such a stunt? If you want to understand human beings then look at whay they do, and if something is so unusual it means that there's an exceedingly good chance that Jack was no different in that he wouldn't have done such a thing either (unless of course he had no other viable option).

[Fleetwood Mac]

It depends how absorbent the material was, Fleets. The organs probably did leave a residual trace on the outer "layers", but they were most conspicuously concentrated on the corner that directly juxtaposed the organs. My point was that the larger the rag, that greater the chances of the killer's clothing remaining gunk-free.

I agree with all of that, Ben.

My point is that this was once deemed to be a simple proposition: he took organs; he took cloth; the popped the organs into the cloth.

Now, we moved to ifs, buts, maybes, posibilities to make this proposition work.

Perhaps there a simpler proposition with fewer variables to as to why he cut the apron.

[Trevor Marriott]

I agree with all of that, Ben.

My point is that this was once deemed to be a simple proposition: he took organs; he took cloth; the popped the organs into the cloth.

Now, we moved to ifs, buts, maybes, posibilities to make this proposition work.

Perhaps there a simpler proposition with fewer variables to as to why he cut the apron.

Or if in fact the killer did cut the apron piece ?

Because if you elminate the organs being taken away, the handwiping and the knife wiping what are you left with ?

[Ben]

Hi Fleets,

My point is that this was once deemed to be a simple proposition: he took organs; he took cloth; the popped the organs into the cloth. Now, we moved to ifs, buts, maybes, posibilities to make this proposition work.

The proposition works already. All we're doing is examining the specific details associated with it, and determining whether or not it correlates with PC Long's description of the apron when found. In my opinion, it does so very well, especially if he wrapped it bandage-style as I've suggested.

[GregBaron]

Bold and cold...

A psychopath displays instinct, as we all do.

Bundy may have drove around with body parts, and others may have kept them at home, but the police would have had to have stopped them to work this out, and there was little chance of that happening.

The point with Jack is that it's being suggested that he deliberately walked into a place where the police were stopping people, he walked into that place an hour so after the murder, he walked into that place with incriminating evidence.

In other words, the argument goes that Jack was putting himself into a position where there was a good chance he would be caught and would hang.

Using Ted Bundy as an example, as bizarre as it is, the police would have had no reason to stop him and therefore the risk he was running was minimal (except perhaps a head rolling out the car door or something when he parked up and tried to get out, much to the consternation of Mrs Brown who's only popped out for some fish and is looking forward to a fish pie when she gets home and so she rings CSI Miami to sort it out).

Anyway, do you know of anyone who has pulled such a stunt? If you want to understand human beings then look at whay they do, and if something is so unusual it means that there's an exceedingly good chance that Jack was no different in that he wouldn't have done such a thing either (unless of course he had no other viable option).

I agree, Fleetwood, that the psychopath doesn't want to be caught. My point is that boldness and lack of normal fear reactions are part of his disorder. As I said, the preppy murderer watched his crime scene as it was discovered. We know that psychopaths have inserted themselves into investigations of their own crimes.

I don't know of a specific example that jives with this scenario but the reason is probably because they weren't caught.

With that said, I don't believe the killer returned with the apron, I believe it more likely that Long missed it the first time.

I still have heard no comment on the idea that the apron contained Jtr's own blood!


Greg

[Fleetwood Mac]

Hi Fleets,

The proposition works already. All we're doing is examining the specific details associated with it, and determining whether or not it correlates with PC Long's description of the apron when found. In my opinion, it does so very well, especially if he wrapped it bandage-style as I've suggested.

Surely the details must fit the theory in order to engender a viable proposition?