The Apron

[lynn cates]

Macbeth

Hello Tom. I was thinking in terms of Macbeth and Lady Macbeth. Recall how they framed the 2 grooms by placing the bloody dagger near them.

"Frame" is merely parlance.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

ruckus

Hello Neil. Thanks for that quote.

If I recall properly, Halse raised a real ruckus about Warren having the writing expunged.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

police presence

Hello Mac.

"The City Police were certainly extra vigilant that night in terms of the amount of officers on the streets"

Indeed. Not to mention their orders.

And that has always puzzled me.

Ideas?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

reentry

Hello Lechmere.

"Yet re-entering the area with a major piece of incriminating evidence just so he can leave the apron and possibly inscribe the graffiti at that particular location makes no sense at all."

Precisely. But what if the apron toter/graffiti inscriber were above suspicion?

Cheers.
LC

[Phil H]

There is no need for any of this spurious elaboration.

"Jack" killed Eddowes, cut off some material to clean himself up, discarded it in an open doorway and went home. End of story.

If we go down this conspiratorial ratholes we'll soon be asking not who was JtR, but who was the only person in London not involved.

If some of this stuff appeared in an undergraduate history essay you'd get Z minus for misuing evidence, not arguing logically and creating scenarios out of whole cloth. It may be fun, but it's neither big nor clever, let alone grown up.

Phil

[Malcolm X]

Thanks, Malcolm.

Although no murderer, I could make it as a second rate graffiti artist.

The point is this: there must be something in the writing to make you think the writing and apron are connected. For instance, in the event the writing stated: John loves Claire, you wouldn't connect the two.

So, what excatly in the writing connects the two?

oh flipping heck

you must know my theory by now.... the connection is very strong, L.Stride was killed at Dutfields, the graffiti is refering back to that location, and the bloody apron is refering back to Eddowes...... both murders are therefore linked.

that club was full of socialist revolutionary Jew troublemakers, according to what i've read, but it might not be as bad as that, whatever the case, you should know exactly what i mean by now, because i've been mentioning this for ages.

you have what might be, a bunch of local jew hating street vigilantes, hanging around outside Dutfields causing mayhem, maybe 4 guys and one of these is JTR..... they're hastling prostitutes, picking fights, that sort of thing, this lot might have killed Tabram too.

i dont think JTR is BS, he's one of the others that spoke to Stride earlier, the one that told her, ``you'd say anything except your prayers``

i think that BS and Pipeman are maybe his friends, these lot seem like a Motley bunch with only JTR being the heavyweight mutilator, you might find that Coles/ Mackenzie were killed by Pipeman/ BS....

``you'd say anything but your prayers`` is odd, it's fully loaded, it's sneering and quite insulting, he's saying ``you're a liar and a waste of space``..... even if he said this as a joke, it's still quite insulting.....of course, we dont know if he really said this and this is why we're so Screwed when it comes to JTR

maybe this bunch aren't friends, maybe this location is a magnet for troublemakers instead ..

because if anything, BS and PIPEMAN look like they know each other, but JTR maybe not........... not sure, maybe

[John Bennett]

There is no need for any of this spurious elaboration.

"Jack" killed Eddowes, cut off some material to clean himself up, discarded it in an open doorway and went home. End of story.

Occam's Razor in action, Phil. And I concur.

And then I would venture this:

-Jack tosses apron piece into doorway en route from Mitre Square, so it has possibly been there since 1.55am (approx).
-PC Long passes at 2.20am and doesn't see apron, possibly because he just didn't notice it in the darkness of the doorway.
-2.55am, Long goes for another pass and perhaps checking a tad more thoroughly, finds apron and graffiti.

That's as simple as I can muster.

[Fleetwood Mac]

I think you are wrong in that line of thinking, but. . .

Then why did he take the cut piece of apron with him?

'Wrong'?

I certainly can't prove it.

But, it's not a bad argument at all.

In terms of logisitics and practicality:

Think about it. A full apron, tied at the waist from the back, she's on her back: how exactly does he pull this thing up in order to do his mutilation bit? Either he reaches round the back and unties it (tricky when she's lying on her back), or he cuts the apron.

In terms of why he took it, then that's an altogether different question which does not negate the aforementioned proposition.

[Malcolm X]

'Wrong'?

I certainly can't prove it.

But, it's not a bad argument at all.

In terms of logisitics and practicality:

Think about it. A full apron, tied at the waist from the back, she's on her back: how exactly does he pull this thing up in order to do his mutilation bit? Either he reaches round the back and unties it (tricky when she's lying on her back), or he cuts the apron.

In terms of why he took it, then that's an altogether different question which does not negate the aforementioned proposition.

hay that's quite good, it's tied at the back yes, but isn't it open at the back too, i'll just ask my mother ...yes it's open at the back, but it's not shown in the artwork, so the bit that's still left behind is probably out of view behind her dress, with the whole of the front part cut and ripped off.

why? he was in a hurry and couldn't be bothered to undo the back, you say that she still had cleaning cloths in her pockets..... yes, i very much doubt that JTR had enough time to check her pockets

and deffo not afterwards why ? his hands were covered in blood, no blood is mentioned on anything in her pockets, he wiped his hands/knife on the apron piece later.....

where did he put the organs ?..... no idea ! probably in the apron piece and then when cleaned, directly into his pockets...... no idea!

but..... if he was planning to mutilate that night, along with the chalk, he might have had a piece of his own cloth too, or even a small container, yes now this is highly likely.

[Fleetwood Mac]

why? he was in a hurry, and couldn't be bothered to undo the back

Or, he would have had to have rolled her over to gain access to the bow, which would have led to more blood being on his person. Would seem expedient to simply cut the apron, which would explain why the cut piece was so large, and why didn't use one of the many pieces of cloth on Eddowes at the time.

[Malcolm X]

Or, he would have had to have rolled her over to gain access to the bow, which would have led to more blood being on his person. Would seem expedient to simply cut the apron, which would explain why the cut piece was so large, and why didn't use one of the many pieces of cloth on Eddowes at the time.

very true, please see my earlier post

there's plenty of room to clean yourself, this piece of apron cloth is very large, it'll be about 14'' wide by about 2ft 6'', JTR might also have washed his hands in a nearby puddle !

[Phil H]

the connection is very strong, L.Stride was killed at Dutfields, the graffiti is refering back to that location,

I assume that somehow you are referring to the word "Juwes" or "Jewes" in the graffito.

Precisely how does the graffito refer back to Dutfield's Yard (if you'd said the IWMC I might have been more impressed)?

How does "Juwes" or "Jewes" so certainly make that connection? Why not link it to Mitre Square and the nearby Synagogue?

My suspicion is that you NEED to link Goulston St, the killer of Eddowes and Berner's St because otherwise the evidence that "Jack" killed Stride is too flimsy to contemplate.

There is NO agreement on the meaning of the graffito (or even of the word Jewes - however spelled); there is no concensus that the killer wrote the words, and certainly no clear or even remote link from Goulston St to berners St.

Phil

[Fleetwood Mac]

My suspicion is that you NEED to link Goulston St, the killer of Eddowes and Berner's St because otherwise the evidence that "Jack" killed Stride is too flimsy to contemplate.

I don't subscribe to the author of the GSG being Jack.

I don't, however, agree with the idea that without it there is nothing to connect Stride to Jack.

The most important point being this: Stride was laid down and her throat coat in a fashion consistent with Jack, as if done for some wider purpose. Of all the other murders that we are aware of at the time in that area, how many of the victims had their throats cuts in that manner with the the victim lying on the floor?

Anyway, slightly off-topic, but it brings us neatly back to the writing and it's importance, or lack thereof, to the case.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Yet he would have had usually several minutes head start and by the time the alarm was raised that would be ten minutes. He could be the best part of a mile away by the time a search was actually mounted. That explains why he wasn’t found by people alerted from the crime scene.

How many serial killers have willingly returned to within range of the police search with incriminating evidence on their person? That really should tell a story, because as human beings our base instincts are the same: if you wouldn't do it, and I wouldn't do it, and the rest of this board wouldn't do it, and known serial killers didn't do it; then it's fair to assume Jack didn't do it.

So, we're left with a situation where either Jack dropped it between 2.20 and 2.55, which would mean Jack couldn't raise his head above the parapet until that time, or PC Long was mistaken, or someone else put it there.

[Malcolm X]

the connection is very strong, L.Stride was killed at Dutfields, the graffiti is refering back to that location,

I assume that somehow you are referring to the word "Juwes" or "Jewes" in the graffito.

Precisely how does the graffito refer back to Dutfield's Yard (if you'd said the IWMC I might have been more impressed)?

How does "Juwes" or "Jewes" so certainly make that connection? Why not link it to Mitre Square and the nearby Synagogue?

My suspicion is that you NEED to link Goulston St, the killer of Eddowes and Berner's St because otherwise the evidence that "Jack" killed Stride is too flimsy to contemplate.

There is NO agreement on the meaning of the graffito (or even of the word Jewes - however spelled); there is no concensus that the killer wrote the words, and certainly no clear or even remote link from Goulston St to berners St.

Phil

as far as you believe yes, but others like me believe that the link is very strong indeed.

many of the police/ historians think that this belongs to JTR/ Eddowes and that it's maybe about anti-semetism, this is a long time before even you and i were born...... but it's me that's saying that it's also linked to Dutfields too.

i believe this because the speculation/ theory seems to be quite strong, it is far more likely to be all connected than not...

is it sheer fluke that serial killer no 2 just happened to kill Stride on Jewish ground, on the same night that Eddowes died later on ?........ I DOUBT IT

as for who killed her, well yes anyone could have done this i suppose, but to sit on the fence casting down stones on either side, is not an option for me.

as such i think JTR killed all 3 of these women.