The Apron

[Steven Russell]

Getting back to the apron piece, I'm sure I read recently that it was so filthy that it was originally thought to be black. But I can't find the reference now and it's bugging the life out of me. Can anyone help?

Best wishes,
Steve.

[Phil H]

there is something really odd about GH statement and i think the clues will be most of all in his letters.... but if they're not by him then it doesn't really matter, because he might have adjusted his statement to suit someone elses letters.

Malcolm - are you really suggesting that the "Letters from Hell" correspondence was from "Jack"?

It seems to take us back to thinking in the 60s. I thought we had got beyond that.

Phil

[Malcolm X]

i'm banking on there being other clues, because my theory is that he went to the police after MJK on purpose.

i think he's telling us that he's JTR, but this is quite well disguised, he's like a ``thrill attention seeker`` serial killer, that inserts himself into a case, by pretending to help the police, there's been quite a few of these in America.

i think he's saying, ``my witness statement is so damned rediculous that it's obvious that i'm JTR, now are you smart enough to detect this``

``i only signed the witness statement once, you lot signed the other two pages, now did i do this on purpose?``...( it's easy to modify your signature once)

there is something really odd about GH statement and i think the clues will be most of all in his letters.... but if they're not by him then it doesn't really matter, because he might have adjusted his statement to suit someone elses letters.

i'm not sure, but it's all very interesting.

you see, if GH was JTR, there is no need for him to go to the police, because this lot cant catch a cold, they're like DUMB DUMBER and DUMBEST, so he must have gone to the police to torment them only.

if GH isn't JTR, then he's simply doing this for a cash reward, or simply to be a total f*** Wit, but the trouble is his statement reveals far too much.

it's more likely that Toppy isn't GH, he only pretended to be years later, and to honest, it looks like his son REG is the only person that's saying this, Toppy looks far weaker to me as GH, than he did 4 years ago.

[Ben]

But, I'm scratching my head thinking on how on earth can someone think that this is Jack attempting to deflect suspicion.

It's a screamingly simple premise, Fleets, and "deflecting suspicion" has been a tactic resorted to by many serial killers. I'm "scratching my head" in disbelief that anyone should resist this possibility so staunchly. By depositing the apron in a very Jew-concentrated locality, and writing a message explicitly mentioning the Jews (if the killer was responsible for both expedients), he may well have been seeking to implicate the Jews, and some of the police seniority believed that this was precisely what the author was trying to achieve. They certainly didn't rule out the possibility for the reason you do, i.e. that nobody would be "stupid" enough to deflect suspicion in such a fashion, and I personally go with the stupidity-barometer used by the police at the time.

[curious]

Hi curious

I believe you speak some truth. We probably don't have any conception of how the killer's mind worked. When we say "that's illogical" or "that doesn't make sense" we are not taking allowance of a type of mentality we can't really comprehend. There's the mindset of the killer but there's also the fact that the man was on the run and making quick decisions with an ongoing manhunt ramped up on the night of the Double Event because a hue and cry was on following the murder of Stride, shortly to be multiplied with the finding of the body of Eddowes.

Best regards

Chris

On the run in a hurry yet he still apprently has time to stop and write the graffiti which as it stands has absolutley nothing to suggest it is connected to the murder or any of the murders. He dumps the apron piece not really knowing if it is going to be found or not.

Does anyone really belive that ?

Far more easier options open to him if he wanted to make it known the first being get the hell out of the immediate area not stop to write a cryptic message.Its easy to say we dont know the mind of the killer thats a cop out statement for those who want to belive in this theory.

Hello, Gentlemen,
Thanks for the replies.

I don't know what happened the night Stride and Eddowes were killed. It's that simple.

But IF the same man killed them both, you have someone who delights in taking chances and was revv'd from two murders.

Do you really believe that a man who would cut the throat of a woman in an area as crowded as Dutfield's Yard or surrounded by policemen as he was at Mitre Square would stop to consider the danger of going back out, dropping the apron piece then writing something incoherent?

Really, he would be afraid? He would be hesitant?

I think he might be glorying in it.

Have you ever been around actors after a "standing ovation" show? Do you have any idea how "UP" people get and for how long it lasts before they crash?

I am beginning to believe this killer (IF it is just one, and I'm not sure) would have likely have taken especial delight in pulling this one last thing off. He had only to drop the apron. If accosted by police while writing, he could simply disavow even having noticed the piece of debris at his feet. It was simply there, had nothing to do with him. BUT he was not caught . . .

I don't believe we can apply logic here, gentlemen. You have a crazy person, drunk with success and blood, he eluded the authorities and everyone else in a crowded yard and even under the noses of several policeman.

He was invincible!

curious

[Malcolm X]

Hello Malcolm. Technically, suggesting that there was anyone else "with him" labels one as a "conspiracy theorist." (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

well just look at Stride, very strange isn't it..... as for conspiracy theories all i say is ``face palm``

[Malcolm X]

Except it isn't obvious.

Let's say the writing stated: "oranges and apples, 5 for a pound, theft will not be tolerated, get them here".

Would you claim the writing was Jack's work?

dont me silly

hang around yes i would..... 5 for a pound means 5 victims, but i dont steal from them and get the victims here in Whitechapel...... hay, this is better than the actual graffiti.... well done

[lynn cates]

conspiracy afoot

Hello Malcolm. Technically, suggesting that there was anyone else "with him" labels one as a "conspiracy theorist." (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[Malcolm X]

Chris
There are endless possibilities but only several which are open to discussion and you are right the whole series of murders is perplexing and as a series you cannot discount Tabram, Coles or Mckenzie which many seem to want to ignore.

yes this is true, i definitely include Tabram and i dont know why she was removed from the main victims list, because she was definitely there 4 years ago, this could quite easily be JTR, or Pipeman/ BS .... Tabram could quite easily be a murder committed by a very inexperienced JTR, but it does look like someone else was with him, well maybe someone like Pipeman, who knows.

[Trevor Marriott]

Trevor,

I can't believe I'm saying this, but your ideas are growing on me. The argument between you and Paul B goes to you.

You're still not on my Christmas list, though!

Sincerely,

Mike

Dont worry my birthday comes before xmas you can make amends

[Trevor Marriott]

The Cartel?, actually I have not followed the posts where this has been brought up.
Are these the "Brotherhood of the Consensus", the "Casebook Starchamber", aka the retainers of "Conventional Ripperology"?
These must be the same "Illuminati" who wouldn't appreciate me bringing up the "grapes"?


(Metaphorically speaking)
You show me ten people who agree on anything here & I'll show you nine people who can't think for themselves!

I may have left the wrong impression, I was meaning Kelly's parts were located & identified before her body was taken to the mortuary, so no light-fingered Larry had the chance to pocket the heart, or anything else in her case.



Actually Trevor, I was just giving Tom an honest answer to an honest question. I wasn't infering support or critique for anyone's theories.
Sorry if you thought it was aimed at you, but it wasn't.

Regards, Jon S.

I didnt think that at all it was an issue that i felt needed clarifying for obvious reasons.

[Scott Nelson]

Hey Chris,

What's Mr. DiGrazia up to these days?

[Wickerman]

Hi Wick,
Thanks for that. But actually, it's rather accepted now that Kelly's heart was taken away by her killer... I believe the cartel made it official a couple of years ago, but you should double-check that with Monty.

The Cartel?, actually I have not followed the posts where this has been brought up.
Are these the "Brotherhood of the Consensus", the "Casebook Starchamber", aka the retainers of "Conventional Ripperology"?
These must be the same "Illuminati" who wouldn't appreciate me bringing up the "grapes"?


(Metaphorically speaking)
You show me ten people who agree on anything here & I'll show you nine people who can't think for themselves!

I may have left the wrong impression, I was meaning Kelly's parts were located & identified before her body was taken to the mortuary, so no light-fingered Larry had the chance to pocket the heart, or anything else in her case.

Just to correct you I have not suggested a mortuary attendant I have suggested persons connected to the medical profession. A mortuary attendant would not have sufficient medical knowledge to have performed the removals.

Actually Trevor, I was just giving Tom an honest answer to an honest question. I wasn't infering support or critique for anyone's theories.
Sorry if you thought it was aimed at you, but it wasn't.

Regards, Jon S.

[Fleetwood Mac]

I've read some fascinating stuff on here, obviously people have put a lot of effort into putting some meat on the bones. It's a great board, with some sharp people; plenty of times I thought: "why didn't I think of that?"

But, I'm scratching my head thinking on how on earth can someone think that this is Jack attempting to deflect suspicion. It would have to be the most base attempt in hisory, a burrow owl could have done a better job. Seriously, can you think of any killer in history who has made such a pathetic attempt of deflecting responsibility?

The only way this writing is connected to the murder is this: it was written by a Jew; John/Wickerman was correct in that the writing should be taken as written (the Jews will not be blamed when they're innocent); it is a clear statement of intent (**** with us and we'll cause you problems). I don't go with this, but it's a much better bet than someone attempting to blame 'the Jews'.

And, for what purpose? What exactly would the writing have achieved? The police focus only on Jews? Are the police that stupid? (I suppose we have Wearside Jack).

[Fleetwood Mac]

Perhaps because the killer, writer, whoever is so out there that he thought he was being perfectly clear and had no idea that his brain worked so differently from the majority of people's minds that he was completely incoherent.

Just recently, I received in the office a "press release" so garbled I could not make head nor tails of what the writer was attempting to say.

When I discussed it with some of the editors who knew the writer, they said that's just how this person's mind works -- completely out-of-sync with the majority. This person is just impossible to "follow" or figure out.

This recent contact has demonstrated to me that a basically normal person might have no way to understant JtR.

Just a perhaps,

curious

Perhaps Curious, it's a possibility.

How likely though?

How many serial killers leave a message that is open to debate in terms of intent?

I would imagine there is an exception out there, and I'm not well versed in every lunatic doing the rounds (hope Sally is reading this and is suitably impressed). But, I would bet a pound to a penny that it is not the rule.

Yours,
Israel Sunshine, formerly FM.