The Apron

[Jimi]

The Apron

Hi All
Been reading this thread with much interest, and i have a couple of things i would like to raise.
Firstly, do we know for definite that it was an apron? Could it have been a pinafore which is also tied at thr neck and often erroneously referred to as an apron.
Secondly, what was the said apron made from? From what i have seen there are three types of material that are possibilities-:
A, Batiste- a very sheer,thin material, possible for wiping hands but not very and useless for carrying organs due to the leakage.
B, Cotton- Good for wiping hands, not so much for carrying organs,however,would Eddowes have had access to cotton in 1880s England?
C, Calico- A very coarse type of cotton, much cheaper and rougher,thicker than cotton. Trying to wipe your hands on Calico would be possible but,i believe, more like using cardboard, too stiff. However it would be the best for carrying off organs, little leakage plus it would,i believe, be more in Eddowes range than the other two.
If i could also mention with a view to the anti-semitic comments made, did you know that the apron and the mens belt were viewed by the Jewish as the dividing garment between the spiritual and the earthly(sexual) areas of the body.
Keep Well
Jimi

[Chava]

Why Didn't He Shred That Cloth?

He's got a knife. He's in possession of a piece of cloth that will hang him if it's found on his person. I've never really subscribed to the 'he wanted to blame the Jews' theory. But if you think about it, if he has this large piece of cloth that can be matched right back to the victim's apron, why does he keep it whole? He's got a very sharp knife and he can just cut it through in places and shred it a bit. Then take his knife right through it a couple of times. And voila! A few unidentifiable shreds of cloth. Drop them around the area and he's golden. Even if he's stopped and searched, they'll never associate a small rag with the missing piece of apron.

So maybe he used it for something--cut finger, organ carrying, whatever. And then thought 'I could do myself a favour with this piece of highly incriminating evidence'. However, having said all this, I still think the safest thing would have been to get back home and burn the damn' thing. So why did he want to blame the Jews so badly. 'Anti-semetism' apart, the graffito is nowhere near intelligible enough as a Jewish admission. So maybe he didn't write it.

Or maybe his first language wasn't English...

[harry]

lynn,
The killer would not have been able to remove all signs of blood by the time he reached Goulston Street,especially from clothin,but he could have minimised the amount, to the state where dripping of blood was prevented.Also the smell from human waste was probably another factor that might be lessened by an attempt at cleaning.So I do believe the apron piece was taken with cleansing in mind,no matter that it would not be one hundred per cent effective.

[Fleetwood Mac]

lynn,
The killer would not have been able to remove all signs of blood by the time he reached Goulston Street,especially from clothin,but he could have minimised the amount, to the state where dripping of blood was prevented.Also the smell from human waste was probably another factor that might be lessened by an attempt at cleaning.So I do believe the apron piece was taken with cleansing in mind,no matter that it would not be one hundred per cent effective.

Personally, I find it hard to believe that he walked from MS to GS wiping his hands all along the way.

If the knife wiping thing is the correct answer, then I'd suggest he ducked into what he considered to be the nearest safe spot to have a breather and steady himself.

Still, in the event he dropped the apron between 2.20 and 2.55, then where was he for at least half an hour?

[lynn cates]

questions to be asked

Hello Mac.

"Personally, I find it hard to believe that he walked from MS to GS wiping his hands all along the way.'

So do I.

"Still, in the event he dropped the apron between 2.20 and 2.55, then where was he for at least half an hour?"

Precisely!

Cheers.
LC

[Fleetwood Mac]

"Still, in the event he dropped the apron between 2.20 and 2.55, then where was he for at least half an hour?"

Precisely!

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn,

What's your thoughts then, Lynn?

Someone else dropped the apron?

[lynn cates]

whom?

Hello Mac. Well, looks that way to me.

But whom?

Cheers.
LC

[Phil Carter]

Hello Lynn,

Of course, it goes without saying that the only known person (other than POSSIBLY the killer) to have been at the precise locations at the precise times was----..oh yes, Halse.

Like I said a long, long time ago..if he hadn't been a policeman, he'd have been in the frame as an accomplice. But we mustn't let logic come in the way of puppeteering...you know, the ever ready guiding hand to steer us away from such unthinkables...because the wheels come off the wagon then, don't they? And "Jack the Ripper", lonely man, loony and desperado... has a mate helping him. And if that mate was a policeman... it is VERY unlikely that THIS one man killed all five women....but then...we always have dear old Kosminsky who wouldn't know one end of a cadaver from another..and the nearest Druitt got to fine leg side was in a cricket match, let alone an inside edge with a flash of his rapier-like swipe through the covers. Far safer to leave them in, discuss them mercilessly, and exclude other more sinister possibilities. Don't want to upset the applecart do we.

Wouldn't be in the public interest...let alone the interests of the "old department" ...reputations are hard to come by.. even if they are not always well earned down the years.


Have a lovely Saturday Lynn. :-)

best wishes

Pjil

[harry]

I would suspect that as soon as the killer was satisfied,or possibly interupted,and decided to leave,his thoughts would be to leave as quickly as possible.The cleaning could be accomplished on the way.The hands,cuffs and forearms would have been the main areas of saturation,and I do not accept that the time it would have taken to reach Goulsten Street,was excessive,and I see no reason why it had to be continuous wiping.The entrance was a good place to have a final look,however,and to discard the apron piece if satisfied.

[Monty]

Personally, I find it hard to believe that he walked from MS to GS wiping his hands all along the way.

If the knife wiping thing is the correct answer, then I'd suggest he ducked into what he considered to be the nearest safe spot to have a breather and steady himself.

Still, in the event he dropped the apron between 2.20 and 2.55, then where was he for at least half an hour?

Mac,

"then I'd suggest he ducked into what he considered to be the nearest safe spot to have a breather and steady himself."

I agree. There is that possibility, as Long walked past, he was in the dwelling just ducking away briefly.

Or we can look at the conviluted theory of Halse which I must steer you all away from as it will upset the applecart of Ripperology and....actually, I can't be arsed. Y'all have the right to assess the evidence and draw your own conclusions. I commend Phil for trying that.

Well done Phil, good job.

Monty

[Phil Carter]

Well, the "theory" about Halse isn't a "Halse was the killer" theory..unlike the people who place Kosminski at Goulston Street without one shred of evidence, or Druitt at Mitre Square and Goulston Street, again without a shred of evidence, and lable them as killers...which has NOT been done with Halse.

All I have done is shown that one person alone is shown to have been in the right place at the right time for the dropping of the apron piece. I haven't said he did do it, but absolutely no other known person from the evidence we have been given could possibly have done what Halse could have done in the exact time available.

Like I said.. because he was a policeman, does NOT make him immune from being an accomplice..for reasons unknown...and that's a darn sight more viable than labelling innocent people as killers without a shred of evidence of them actually being anywhere near the places in question!

What I am trying, perhaps poorly, to say is this...

The myth of a single killer has gone on long enough in this genre. There is a grave doubt in respected quarters as to whether Stride, for one, was a victim of the same hand as the others. Now that makes TWO killers running around Whitechapel. TWO, not one.

Other respected quarters, some the same, have questioned whether Mary Kelly was a victim of the same killer as well. That makes at least TWO, possibly THREE different killers. There is no way around this. If any one victim is not considered a victim of the same hand as the others.. then there is more than one killer involved.

Which means, that we go back to scratch and look at things in an open way WITHOUT being influenced by "Jack the Ripper- 5 woman killing machine".

So if, and it is an if, IF Kate Eddowes was NOT one of the odd ones out (RE. Stride and Kelly, above)..then whoever killed Eddowes is placed in a totally different catagory than the killer of Stride and Kelly. That means that the "double event" is a made up theory... and therefore all connections with "coming from Berner Street" to kill Eddowes must be ignored. Therefore, a fresh INDIVIDUAL approach to each murder is needed. And looking at the known evidence, Halse's positioning, timing, actions and opportunity would have made the man an ideal accomplice..if he didn't happen to be a policeman. That's all I have said.

Means are present, opportunity is present, but we lack a motive. Now that's exactly the same as any theory yet put forward for any named would-be murderer..except no one has yet placed any one of the named suspects anywhere near the site of Goulston Street. All without means and opportunity.

You see, if we WERE able to show ONE of the crimes was of a different hand... then the whole JTR scenario would likely change.

We wouldn't have "Jack the Ripper" anymore.

What effect would that have? Simple.

History would have to be re-written..and any theory, book, film, adaptation, money-making scheme or idea based upon a lone killer would be worthless. Past, present or future.

"Jack the Ripper" is a successful brand name that makes money. Take a look at the new series being drummed up for British TV, and the quotes coming from the makers of how much of a successful "product" Jack the Ripper is....

Change history, and you change that. Forever.

The apron COULD have been dropped by Halse. Why? We don't know. But he was there---unlike the single JTR that by sheer fact, or lack of them, cannot be Kosminsky or Druitt..who were not there in Goulston Street and it is wrong to assume they were.

And if THAT is the case... then all the theories attached to Swanson, Anderson and MacNagthen are worthless. Because if there were more than one killer involved in the 5 murders, their theories are based on a falsity. No single killer. And that will upset all who believe that these erudite men are the be all and end all of given historical Ripperology.

Just who else could have dropped the apron piece, known to have been in the right place at the right time? The two unknown men Halse stopped before entering Goulston Street? From which direction were they coming from/going to? Is the time correct? If so.. and this is assumption, that these two were involved in the dropping of the rag.. then we have TWO people here alone involved in one aspect of one murder. Thats a possibility too. Not as precise, time and place wise as Halse, but a possibility. So I dont have a conclusion as such... I have possibilities. Halse cleared these men, apparently..so it weakens that argument.

best wishes

Phil

[lynn cates]

whim

Hello Phil. Are you saying that the apron piece could be a bit of a "whim" behaviour?

Cheers.
LC

[Fleetwood Mac]

Hello Mac. Well, looks that way to me.

But whom?

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn,

I'm assuming you think the apron was placed at GS in order to gain access to the tenants?

[Fleetwood Mac]

Mac,

"then I'd suggest he ducked into what he considered to be the nearest safe spot to have a breather and steady himself."

I agree. There is that possibility, as Long walked past, he was in the dwelling just ducking away briefly.

Or we can look at the conviluted theory of Halse which I must steer you all away from as it will upset the applecart of Ripperology and....actually, I can't be arsed. Y'all have the right to assess the evidence and draw your own conclusions. I commend Phil for trying that.

Well done Phil, good job.

Monty

Hello Monty,

Well, I lean towards:

1) My favoured scenario: the apron was placed there by Jack between 2.20 and 2.55, with Jack unable to raise his head above the parapet until that time.

2) Second favoured option, and not far behind: the apron was placed there by the police. I couldn't make the leap to the police being involved in the murders; the only explanation I could offer is that it was done to gain access to the tenants in the building.

Scenario 1 is supported by witness/police testimony; scenario 2 allows for a little creative licence without going too overboard. In the event scenario 1 is the correct answer then it would suggest he had no option but to go that way home, and he musn't have lived very far away at all.

I personally don't see anything other than a man who did pretty much what most serial killers do. They take risks, e.g. dragging women off the street in some cases, and with a mix cunning and limited police technology he managed to evade the polis during 5 possibly 6 murders. There's a good debate to be had as to whether Jack would have been unlucky to have been caught.

[lynn cates]

theorising

Hello Mac.

"I'm assuming you think the apron was placed at GS in order to gain access to the tenants?"

Well, I may not have stated it exactly that way. Of course, all this is mere theorising.

Cheers.
LC