The Apron

[Wickerman]

Hi, Wickerman, maybe he hid away to mend his wound, a torniquete or something.

The piece of apron would have made a suitable tourniqet, any other suggestions

[Tom_Wescott]

Wickerman,

Just so I know where you're coming from, do you think Chapman, Eddowes, and Kelly were the same man and that he did indeed take the organs with him, as opposed to an opportunistic mortuary attendant?

Chava,

Good to see you around!

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Wickerman]

Wickerman,

Just so I know where you're coming from, do you think Chapman, Eddowes, and Kelly were the same man and that he did indeed take the organs with him, as opposed to an opportunistic mortuary attendant?

Tom.
You must leave the mortuary attendant aside with Kelly's murder, she was 're-assembled' by the doctors in Millers Court.
As for Chapman & Eddowes yes, I believe the killer removed the organs in situ.

Regards, Jon S.

[niko]

rumour's

The piece of apron would have made a suitable tourniqet, any other suggestions

This is a bit farfetched but here goes "back to the Royal's". I found this in Paul's book "the fact's", Dr Stowell's claim's that it was rumoured that Dr Gull was in the East End in search of (s) and had a bloodstained shirt because he had attended (s). It is also rumoured that Dr Gull was seen the night of the MURDER'S (interesting, plural) in Whitechapel. I supose this is not true, BUT, there's a saying in Spanish "cuando el rio suena aqua lleva", more or less it mean's "when the river makes noise it's because it's carrying water". All the best, Agur.

niko

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Wick,

Thanks for that. But actually, it's rather accepted now that Kelly's heart was taken away by her killer. I believe the cartel made it official a couple of years ago, but you should double-check that with Monty.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Monty]

Hi Wick,

Thanks for that. But actually, it's rather accepted now that Kelly's heart was taken away by her killer. I believe the cartel made it official a couple of years ago, but you should double-check that with Monty.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

We also have Marriotts brain.

Toms suggestion of the coner collecting blood at the scene works for me.

Monty

[Trevor Marriott]

We also have Marriotts brain.

Toms suggestion of the coner collecting blood at the scene works for me.

Monty

Here we go again there beliveing what the cartel tell us.

There is no direct evidence that the heart was missing from the room in fact newspaper articles an other comments of the day suggest that all the parts were accounted for.

In which case it adds more corrobotattion to the fact that the organs from Edowwes and Chapman were not removed by the killer.Or that Kelly was not killed by the same killer as Chapman and Eddowes.

The Times 10th November

The latest account states upon what professes to be indisputable authority that no portion of the woman's body was taken away by the murderer. As already stated, the post-mortem examination was of the most exhaustive character, and surgeons did not quit their work until every organ had been accounted for and placed as closely as possible in its natural position.

The Echo 12th November

Nothing of any importance was discovered in the ashes at the deceased's house. A small portion only of the remains is missing, while it is noticeable as a special incident in the barbarous murder that the organ hitherto taken away at the mutilations was found in the room, although it had been cut out of the body...

The Times 12th November

As early as half past 7 on Saturday morning, Dr. Phillips, assisted by Dr. Bond (Westminster), Dr. Gordon Brown (City), Dr. Duke (Spitalfields) and his (Dr. Phillips') assistant, made an exhaustive post-mortem examination of the body at the mortuary adjoining Whitechapel Church. It is known that after Dr. Phillips "fitted" the cut portions of the body into their proper places no portion was missing. At the first examination which was only of a cursory character, it was thought that a portion of the body had gone, but this is not the case. The examination was most minutely made, and lasted upwards of 2 ½ hours after which the mutilated portions were sewn to the body, and therefore the coroner's jury will be spared the unpleasant duty of witnessing the horrible spectacle presented to those who discovered the murder. The ashes found in the fireplace of the room rented by the deceased woman were also submitted to a searching examination, but nothing likely to throw any light on this shocking case could be gleaned from them.

[Trevor Marriott]

Tom.
You must leave the mortuary attendant aside with Kelly's murder, she was 're-assembled' by the doctors in Millers Court.
As for Chapman & Eddowes yes, I believe the killer removed the organs in situ.

Regards, Jon S.

Just to correct you I have not suggested a mortuary attendant I have suggested persons connected to the medical profession. A mortuary attendant would not have sufficient medical knowledge to have performed the removals.

[Trevor Marriott]

Hi Wick,

Thanks for that. But actually, it's rather accepted now that Kelly's heart was taken away by her killer. I believe the cartel made it official a couple of years ago, but you should double-check that with Monty.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Good idea with all his huffing and puffing on here I am sure he will be up for promotion.

Tom expect to be asked to name the cartel members because according to them they dont exist.

[Monty]

Blah blah blah.

Nothing significant to say Trevor?

Just falsity and myth.

Monty

[Malcolm X]

The issue here is that whatever theory is subscribed to on the apron, it takes a fair bit of explaining and assuming, and it follows holes can be punched through the theory quite easily.

So, I suppose we're talking degree/probability.

If you believe he returned to the street: then that would be an unnecessary risk.

If you believe he never left the street: then where is he between 1.45 and 2.55?

If you believe he dropped the apron prior to 2.20: do we ignore PC Long?

If you believe he didn't drop the apron: then where is anything remotely approaching evidence to point towards someone else?

Even if you believe Jack took the apron: why didn't he use Eddowes' material (after all, he rifled her pockets, and instead of taking something readily available he decided to do it the hard way)?

It's a mystery, not easy to explain whatever you go with.

i keep telling you and i'll tell you again, he needed part of the Eddowes apron, so that it'll match back to the original like a jigsaw puzzle, but a piece of cleaning cloth from her pockets could have come from anyone, what is so hard about this that you dont understand, because it's obvious to me and many others too.

he needs the graffiti/ apron cloth that's left in this location, to link directly to his latest murder victims, so he needs something that must be personal to Eddowes only; to be left there..... so that there is no element of doubt.

why did he dump the apron there on its own?....because to do so means sod all to anyone, so why the hell did he cut it off in the first place, if she had cleaning cloths in her pocket to wrap up the organs/ wipe his hands instead....

no not at all, he cut off the cloth because he needed it for two reasons, he left it there in reference to the graffiti close by, because neither his message or the cloth will work, without either being present together.

if this gap in time is true before these were discovered, even though the copper might have had a good look, then JTR did indeed return to Dutfields first and waited there amongst the onlookers...... unfortunately we'll never know.

this last paragraph doesn't matter much, because all we need to know is that the graffiti/ cloth belonged to JTR and that it definitely refers back to Dutfields too..... in fact, this graffiti refers to Dutfields far more than anything else.

i can punch holes in any theory you care to mention, but this is far more realistic than a lot of the stuff that's going on around here, i've never heard so much crap in all my life that's worst than, ``someone else removed the organs``.... this is just bullshit

i'm quite happy with all of this, nothing of these last 3 murders bothers me, my only huge worry is this GH pile of crap

[Fleetwood Mac]

i keep telling you and i'll tell you again, he needed part of the Eddowes apron, so that it'll match back to the original like a jigsaw puzzle, but a piece of cleaning cloth from her pockets could have come from anyone, what is so hard about this that you dont understand, because it's obvious to me and many others too.

I shouldn't say this in public, Malcolm, but I am an idiot. Just as well you're here to lead the world into your coming enlightenment.

Well, let's see:

He takes the apron because he is going to scrawl on the wall, and the apron is the signature.

If it's all about signature to verify CE, why doesn't he just sign the writing: "yours respectfully, the man who has just laid waste to the woman in the square"? Was he playing a game amounting to writing a load of rubbish unfathomable to man and beast, which, by the way, didn't mention a murder of any description? Why didn't he walk away from the crime scene and do his writing/apron thing at 1.55? The timing of the apron find is important here. Whereabouts between 1.45 and 2.55? Is the writing even close to the apron? Long doesn't notice the writing immediately.

Oh, and Malcolm, I understand you as plain as day, just don't agree with you.

[Trevor Marriott]

[QUOTE=Monty;195992]Nothing significant to say Trevor?

Just falsity and myth.

Monty
[/QUOTE

I rest my case !

[Trevor Marriott]

i keep telling you and i'll tell you again, he needed part of the Eddowes apron, so that it'll match back to the original like a jigsaw puzzle, but a piece of cleaning cloth from her pockets could have come from anyone, what is so hard about this that you dont understand, because it's obvious to me and many others too.

he needs the graffiti/ apron cloth that's left in this location, to link directly to his latest murder victims, so he needs something that must be personal to Eddowes only; to be left there..... so that there is no element of doubt.

why did he dump the apron there on its own?....because to do so means sod all to anyone, so why the hell did he cut it off in the first place, if she had cleaning cloths in her pocket to wrap up the organs/ wipe his hands instead....

no not at all, he cut off the cloth because he needed it for two reasons, he left it there in reference to the graffiti close by, because neither his message or the cloth will work, without either being present together.

if this gap in time is true before these were discovered, even though the copper might have had a good look, then JTR did indeed return to Dutfields first and waited there amongst the onlookers...... unfortunately we'll never know.

this last paragraph doesn't matter much, because all we need to know is that the graffiti/ cloth belonged to JTR and that it definitely refers back to Dutfields too..... in fact, this graffiti refers to Dutfields far more than anything else.

i can punch holes in any theory you care to mention, but this is far more realistic than a lot of the stuff that's going on around here, i've never heard so much crap in all my life that's worst than, ``someone else removed the organs``.... this is just bullshit

i'm quite happy with all of this, nothing of these last 3 murders bothers me, my only huge worry is this GH pile of crap

So why did he not just send the apron piece with the portion of kidney then if the kidney is beleived to have come from Eddowes. Then all would have known it has come from the killer instead of dumping it in an archway some distance from the crime scene just hoping someone would find it, and amazingly link it to a murder

[Malcolm X]

I shouldn't say this in public, Malcolm, but I am an idiot. Just as well you're here to lead the world into your coming enlightenment.

Well, let's see:

He takes the apron because he is going to scrawl on the wall, and the apron is the signature.

If it's all about signature to verify CE, why doesn't he just sign the writing: "yours respectfully, the man who has just laid waste to the woman in the square"? Was he playing a game amounting to writing a load of rubbish unfathomable to man and beast, which, by the way, didn't mention a murder of any description? Why didn't he walk away from the crime scene and do his writing/apron thing at 1.55? The timing of the apron find is important here. Whereabouts between 1.45 and 2.55? Is the writing even close to the apron? Long doesn't notice the writing immediately.

Oh, and Malcolm, I understand you as plain as day, just don't agree with you.

dont worry i'm an idiot too, it's just that over the years i've seemed to come to this conclusion by trial and error only...... it just feels totally right

it is very true what you say..... he writes a load of rubbish and doesn't say that he's JTR..... it's like he's saying and you do see this type of thing quite often :- ``Millwall fc are crap``, he's just coming out with a silly statement, he's not telling you which team he supports is he.

but he does leave you with a bloody apron, that is obviously a perfect match, like a Jigsaw, to the original which is still on Eddowes, he therefore doesn't really need to tell you that he's JTR, because it's obvious.

as to the graffiti link and not being noticed at first, well this doesn't really matter, because it definitely was later and instantly linked to JTR at the time, and then foolishly removed, so unfortunately it's a bit of this and a bit of that.

i simply have faith that it's all the work of JTR, and not without good reason too.

.