Was Kate really soliciting?

[j.r-ahde]

Hello Curious4!

My personal impression is, that most women in the East End had a hunch about the identity of JtR!

But most obviously none of the was right!

All the best
Jukka

[kensei]

Coming in late as I often do-- Let me play devil's advocate here, and get a bit sentimental. A sound byte from Philip Hutchinson's Ripper tour that I went on in '08 replays in my head about Kate and her man John Kelly- "They'd fight sometimes, but generally they were very much in love." I think that's true, and that in the context of the squallor they lived in they were actually a very charming couple. They had spent all their remaining money on breakfast, and Kate had set out promising to try and get more. She loved John, and she meant it. Not finding her daughter to beg from, she probably resorted to a few tricks who either gave her money that she wasted on booze, or she had a client actually pay her with booze. Why do this? Because she was also an alcoholic, and the monkey on her back was always making demands of her, as strong or stronger than her feelings for John. It's textbook addiction.

So she ends up drunk in jail. Theories about an appointment with the Ripper have to rely on a one-in-a-thousand chance of her getting out in time and can, I feel, be discounted. What was going on in Kate's head? Alcoholics commonly do anything they can to get drunk even at the expense of things that are more important, then feel horribly guilty about it later. She loved John, even if he might have been rough with her sometimes (and that's not even for sure, as the "damn fine hiding" remark she made might just have been idle talk she made up for the police). She had promised him money, and she had failed miserably because of drink. She must have felt two inches tall. She must have thought, I can't go to him like this! I have to make at least a little money before I see him! So she headed to St. Botolph's, the "Prostitute's Church," where she happened to meet the Ripper who was freshly on the run from Berner Street and in search of new blood. It was all tragic serendipity. I don't think we should look at "just the facts" in a cold and detached way. I think the emotions of people in Kate's condition are an important factor as well.

[JTRSickert]

Here's another one for you all....

I personally assume that, after murdering Stride, JTR made a hasty escape, but without the intention of trying to commit another murder. While his bloodlust may have still been high, I think his primary motivation was to get the hell out of the area where he was almost caught in the act of killing someone and get to safer quarters. I also think that, seeing Kate in Mitre Square, he saw an opportunity and he took it. However, that being said, if after killing Stride he needed to get to somewhere safe (as I think he was, and not intentionally looking for another victim)and if his primary residence was somewhere in the heart of Whitechapel (evidenced by the location of Eddowes' apron found in Goulston street), then why would he head all the way in the direction of Mitre Square, which is inside the City of London jurisdiction if his primary residence was back in Whitechapel/Spitalfields?

[Trevor Marriott]

Here's another one for you all....

I personally assume that, after murdering Stride, JTR made a hasty escape, but without the intention of trying to commit another murder. While his bloodlust may have still been high, I think his primary motivation was to get the hell out of the area where he was almost caught in the act of killing someone and get to safer quarters. I also think that, seeing Kate in Mitre Square, he saw an opportunity and he took it. However, that being said, if after killing Stride he needed to get to somewhere safe (as I think he was, and not intentionally looking for another victim)and if his primary residence was somewhere in the heart of Whitechapel (evidenced by the location of Eddowes' apron found in Goulston street), then why would he head all the way in the direction of Mitre Square, which is inside the City of London jurisdiction if his primary residence was back in Whitechapel/Spitalfields?

What if he didnt kill Stride ?

[Addy]

Perhaps he did not want to risk a house to house questioning showing him to have come in shortly after the murder?

Or he was forced to take a different route due to policemen asking passers by questions and he still had blood on him?

Greetings,

Addy

[Mitch Rowe]

Here's another one for you all....

I personally assume that, after murdering Stride, JTR made a hasty escape, but without the intention of trying to commit another murder. While his bloodlust may have still been high, I think his primary motivation was to get the hell out of the area where he was almost caught in the act of killing someone and get to safer quarters. I also think that, seeing Kate in Mitre Square, he saw an opportunity and he took it. However, that being said, if after killing Stride he needed to get to somewhere safe (as I think he was, and not intentionally looking for another victim)and if his primary residence was somewhere in the heart of Whitechapel (evidenced by the location of Eddowes' apron found in Goulston street), then why would he head all the way in the direction of Mitre Square, which is inside the City of London jurisdiction if his primary residence was back in Whitechapel/Spitalfields?

I believe there is like a Church where Women would walk looking for customers. I think its near Mitre Square. If thats the case then JTR knows where to find easy prey quickly after the Stride fiasco.

[DanaeChantel]

I know I'm new here and probably should wait until I know a little more about the killings, but I think I will just jump right in.

I think that possibly Kate Eddowes needed to make some quick money before going home to her man as she had spent all the money that day on drink, AND not to mention, she pawned her man's boots, however, she was probably feeling worse for wear, possibly she was hungry and tired and just wanted to get home. My question is this . . .maybe Jack just attacked her outright or possibly jumped her, knowing she was a prostitute or thinking she was a prostitute. I started a thread on here stating that I wonder if JTR solicited his victims or just outright attacked them in the dark.

Kate probably needed money, but she did tell the constable "I'll get a damn fine hiding when I get home." I'm thinking she wanted to high tail it back to her man and get some sleep.

[spyglass]

Hi,
I dont think it has ever been prooved that Eddowes was a prostitute has it?...
just assumed, and if so must have had another reason for being in Mitre Square.

[Hunter]

From the Eddowes inquest-no. 135 ( Corporation of London Records Office)

Kelly answering question by Coroner- 'I never suffered her to go out for immoral purposes. She was occasionally in the habit of slightly drinking to excess. She had no money about her when I left.'

Upon being recalled to the witness stand the Coroner asked- 'You were asked before if she walked the streets, and you said she did not.'
Kelly- 'Sometimes we were without money to pay for our lodging, and we were at the time I speak of...'

How would you interpret this?

[lynn cates]

walking about

Hello Hunter. John Kelly's interpretation was this:

[Coroner] What do you mean by "walking the streets?" - I mean that if we had no money to pay for our lodgings we would have to walk about all night.

(The Daily Telegraph, Friday, October 5, 1888, Page 3)

Accessed from Casebook.

Cheers.
LC

[Hunter]

Yes, this was one inquest where the various newspapers had different quotes or extended versions from several of the witnesses... at least more so than the others.
I had forgotten about the 'DT's' version.

Thanks Lynn.

[Observer]

That's it then let's put this one to bed, John Kelly has spoken, Catherine Eddowes was not a prostitute.

An Yet.

She was seen talking at 1:35 a.m. in the morning to a stranger, or at least an unidentified man, who despite being described in some detail was never traced, who never came forward. Ten minutes later she's dead, not 50 yards distance from the Lawende sighting, tucked away in the shady corner of Mitre Sqaure. I'd say she was soliciting that morning. Might I add that Catherine Eddowes was found within a two minute walk of St Botophls church, supposedly a haunt of prostitutes.

Observer

[richardnunweek]

Hi ,
I hold the view that Eddowes was not a prostitute, down on her luck, and fond of a drink mayby, but no more.
She was reported to have been a one man type, and her and kelly [ her partner] very much an item.
I would say she was picked up by a sailor near Botophis church, believing her to have been open for business, and the positioning of Eddowes hand [ on chest] indicates to me at least, that she was rejecting amourous advances.
Was this man JTR?
If he was, how did he manage to get a unwilling Eddowes down church passage into the corner of the square without making a sound?
Did he pretend to walk away, and Eddowes opting to cut through the square away from the man, was followed by her accoster, or was the actual killer waiting in the square, and not the man Lawande described.
My money is on Jack, having been rejected by Kate pretended to accept her reluctance, and then followed her into the square, and attacked her as she reached the south west corner.
Regards Richard.

[Monty]

Can someone pease provide me evidence that St Botolphs was actually used as a meeting point for prostitutes?

My answer would be that you cannot.

Monty

[lynn cates]

hand on chest

Hello Richard. I think you are right in paying special attention to Kate’s body position during her meeting—especially hand on chest. This may be significant.

A few months ago I was given a piece of evidence from a Ripper researcher that both John and Kate were employed at one time by Jenkinson. The net result is that, in light of this evidence, I looked more closely at John Kelly’s inquest testimony. I did this to reconstruct their movements upon getting back from the hopping. Notice these discrepancies in his testimony

I last saw her alive about two o'clock in the afternoon of Saturday in Houndsditch. We parted on very good terms. She told me she was going over to Bermondsey to try and find her daughter Annie. Those were the last words she spoke to me. Annie was a daughter whom I believe she had had by Conway. She promised me before we parted that she would be back by four o'clock, and no later. She did not return.
[Coroner] Did you make any inquiry after her? - I heard she had been locked up at Bishopsgate-street on Saturday afternoon. An old woman who works in the lane told me she saw her in the hands of the police.
[Coroner] Did you make any inquiry into the truth of this? - I made no further inquiries. I knew that she would be out on Sunday morning, being in the City.

Inquest testimony: From “The daily Telegraph” October 5, 1888

Accessed from Casebook.

On last Saturday morning we were both done up for cash. I had nothing but a pair of boots that would bring anything, and I says to her, "We'll pop the boots and have a bite to eat anyway." "Oh, no," says she, "don't do that;" but I told her I'd pawn the shirt off my back to keep her out of the street, for she had had only a few odd jobs for a goodish spell back But she said she'd go and see what her daughter could do. Howsomever, we popped the boots, and sat in this 'ere kitchen and had what turned out to be
OUR LAST MEAL TOGETHER.
She told me she had made up her mind to go to her daughter's in Bermondsey. I begged her to be back early, for we had been talking about the Whitechapel murders, and I said I did not want to have that knife get at her. "Don't you fear for me," said she, "I'll take care of myself, and I shan't fall into his hands." With that she went out. I went with her to the street corner below, and I never laid eyes on her again till I saw her down at the mortuary last night. I was out in the market all day, but did no good. When she did not come home at night I didn't worry, for I thought her daughter might have asked her to stay over Sunday with her.
Star interview October 3, 1888

Accessed from Casebook.

Q1: When did John last see Kate alive?

A: Saturday afternoon at 2 PM at Houndsditch.
B: Saturday morning at 9 AM having breakfast at the lodging house kitchen.

Q2: Why did John think Kate was not back on Saturday night? (see bold)

A: Thought she had been locked up.
B: Thought she was in Bermondsey.

Q3: Does a loving boy friend have his wife go missing and then not make genuine enquires.

Q4: When did John and Kate “pop” the boots?

A: Friday night.
B: Saturday morning.

Now, try substituting the following scenario predicated on the fact that Kate and John are more work partners than lovers. Kate is frantically seeking money and decides to apply a bit of “incentive” threatening to leak information on Special Branch activities against the Fenians. Ultimately, a representative of SB is sent to meet Kate to address her demands. She has an appointment with him. But unfortunately, she is detained.

Now pick up the action. She meets John who acts as liaison with the SB man. (Notice how natural and self explanatory the hand on the chest now is.) John tells her that the SB man will meet her and discuss her demands. John heads back to the lodging house; Kate goes to her meeting in the square.

After being killed, facial mutilations occur first (see Gareth’s dissertation). In particular, her nose is nearly removed in an abortive effort (triangular flaps), corrected by withdrawing the knife and slicing through the tip of the nose. (Message to fellow operatives past and present—keep your nose where it belongs!)

Almost as an afterthought, the assailant emulates the killing of Annie Chapman but makes a rum job of it, cutting through her colon and getting faecal material about. (Notice the ex post facto story by John about fearing for the Ripper.) He also unwisely cuts through her clothes—something that did not happen with Polly and Annie.

Was John and the assailant sent by SB? Not necessarily. If you read ch 16 of Evans and Skinner’s “Ultimate Companion,” you’ll find a story about an Irish operative named John Kelly who instigated the murder. It is entirely possible that SB, rather than shutting up Kate themselves, made known her status as informant and let the Fenians do their thing. That would make John a chap working both sides.

Fantastic? I merely propose this as an alternative to the standard story whereby Kate, at the last second, decides to turn a trick for 4d so she can say to John, “ ‘ello ‘oney! I’ve bad news and good. The bad news is that I was in gaol and deserve a fine hiding. But the good news is that I let some bloke ‘ump me and see! ‘ere’s 4d! Aren’t you proud of me!”

Pay no attention to an old crank like me.

Cheers.
LC