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Was Kate really soliciting?

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  • Was Kate really soliciting?

    Hey everyone. I was recently thinking about the circumstances of the murder of Catherine Eddowes and something occured to me...why would Kate want to solicit a possible john after just being released after a while being in jail? I mean, think about it: The last time Kate was outside, she was falling-down drunk and acting real inappropriate (making sounds like a fire engine and so forth). When the PC came across her, she in fact was practically passed out on the pavement and he needed another policeman to help carry her to jail. So, it stands to reason that when she sobered up a few hours later, she probably wasn't feeling that good and was pretty hungover. So, I sort of find it a little difficult to think that she would be in any shape to solicit a potential client just for a few shillings. In fact, she told the night watchman as she was leaving "I shall get a damn fine hiding when I get home....thereby implying her next destination was back home.

    However now the question is, how did she end up in Mitre Square, which is the opposite direction of where her home is and if it is possible she was not soliciting, what was she doing there? And how did she come across JTR?
    I won't make any deals. I've resigned. I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed,de-briefed, or numbered!

  • #2
    Hi JTR,

    I wouldn't be surprised to learn that Kate was keeping an appointment. I think the same could be said of Liz and Mary as well. Perhaps an appointment made earlier in the day. It is also strange that Kate had money for drink, Mary didn't seem overly concerned with her rent being due and possibly opened her door late at night and Liz apparently was concerned with her appearance before she went out. Could they have met up with Jack earlier in the day? Possibly he gave them some money with a promise of more to come.

    c.d.

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    • #3
      This has been addressed at length recently but I'll have another go at it. The key is "I'll get a damned fine hiding when I get home".
      She was broke; having obviously spent all of her money ( and Kelly's too) on drink. She likely insisted on getting out as early as possible to 'earn' some money before she got home. If she had a prearranged appointment, getting drunk and not knowing what would happen as a result doen't show that she was much concerned about it.

      She did what the rest of them did when they got desperate and she suffered the same fate as a result... or is that too simple an explaination.
      Best Wishes,
      Hunter
      ____________________________________________

      When evidence is not to be had, theories abound. Even the most plausible of them do not carry conviction- London Times Nov. 10.1888

      Comment


      • #4
        Hi Hunter,

        JTR asked for an alternative to the soliciting scenario which is why I suggested the possibility of an appointment.

        c.d.

        Comment


        • #5
          Sorry C.D. That was a bit brazen on my part. The subject has been discussed a lot lately and I guess I was getting the 'redundant syndrome'.
          Best Wishes,
          Hunter
          ____________________________________________

          When evidence is not to be had, theories abound. Even the most plausible of them do not carry conviction- London Times Nov. 10.1888

          Comment


          • #6
            Understood. No problem.

            c.d.

            Comment


            • #7
              C.D.,

              If you're speculating that she was keeping an appointment as you said, then that raises the question of whether Liz Stride's killer was JTR. I mean, if JTR already had an appointment with Kate Eddowes at a pre-determined time, why would he need to kill Liz Stride an hour beforehand? Was his bloodlust really that overwhelming that he couldn't wait 1 more hour before committing a homicide? Also, if he was in fact the killer of Stride and had been interrupted, would he really still try to keep his appointed meetign with Eddowes despite nearly being caught in the act during the first murder?
              I won't make any deals. I've resigned. I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed,de-briefed, or numbered!

              Comment


              • #8
                Logic suggests she wanted to earn back the money she [presumably] used to buy the drink that landed her in the nick that night which she [presumably] got by pawning her fella's boots.

                Unless she was soliciting, I can't think of many other reasons as to why she'd go with a stranger/john aside from having a one-night-stand (for want of a better phrase) with him in the square or she knew him to an extent and she thought they'd be walking back to the lodge together. Though I'm not convinced by either of those scenarios (actually, they're stupid 'theories' ).

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by JTRSickert View Post
                  Hey everyone. I was recently thinking about the circumstances of the murder of Catherine Eddowes and something occured to me...why would Kate want to solicit a possible john after just being released after a while being in jail? I mean, think about it: The last time Kate was outside, she was falling-down drunk and acting real inappropriate (making sounds like a fire engine and so forth). When the PC came across her, she in fact was practically passed out on the pavement and he needed another policeman to help carry her to jail. So, it stands to reason that when she sobered up a few hours later, she probably wasn't feeling that good and was pretty hungover. So, I sort of find it a little difficult to think that she would be in any shape to solicit a potential client just for a few shillings. In fact, she told the night watchman as she was leaving "I shall get a damn fine hiding when I get home....thereby implying her next destination was back home.

                  However now the question is, how did she end up in Mitre Square, which is the opposite direction of where her home is and if it is possible she was not soliciting, what was she doing there? And how did she come across JTR?
                  Excellent question, JTR. Her comments show her state of mind, which was a bit muddled, probably. She didn't want to go home without some money, because she knew she'd catch it.

                  It may well be that JTR offered her a lot of money and suggested Mitre Square where they would be alone. One "do" and she'd get home with the cash. I don't think he wanted to be anywhere near all the commotion of his last encounter with Liz, because this time he wanted to finish it.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by JTRSickert View Post
                    C.D.,

                    If you're speculating that she was keeping an appointment as you said, then that raises the question of whether Liz Stride's killer was JTR. I mean, if JTR already had an appointment with Kate Eddowes at a pre-determined time, why would he need to kill Liz Stride an hour beforehand? Was his bloodlust really that overwhelming that he couldn't wait 1 more hour before committing a homicide? Also, if he was in fact the killer of Stride and had been interrupted, would he really still try to keep his appointed meetign with Eddowes despite nearly being caught in the act during the first murder?
                    Hi JTR,

                    You make a good point and one that I have to admit that I didn't think of. I shall have to return to the old drawing board with head down.

                    c.d.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by c.d. View Post
                      Hi JTR,

                      You make a good point and one that I have to admit that I didn't think of. I shall have to return to the old drawing board with head down.

                      c.d.
                      I don't think you are off on your idea of JTR making appointments, though. It could have happened. Probably not in this case, because Kate was in the nick and there was no telling when exactly they would have let her out. She obviously wasn't planning ahead that night...

                      Our killer didn't seem to be, either.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Hello you all!

                        How about the following thought;

                        Since CE was known for having a fierce temper, maybe she suddenly decided to change her plans and accidentally met JtR?!

                        All the best
                        Jukka
                        "When I know all about everything, I am old. And it's a very, very long way to go!"

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Hi all,

                          personally I'm sure she met the Ripper by accident. I also believe she was solliciting to have some money when she got home.

                          For an alternative: maybe she didn't want to go home and wandered off thinking what to do and what to say, then met the Ripper who made a nice offer which promised an instant solution. So she wasn't solliciting but was approached.

                          Greetings,

                          Addy

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Here's another one guys...if JTR was the killer of Liz Stride, then Lizzy must have been a tough cookie because based on the description of Schwartz and some other witnesses, she seemed to put up a fight, However, how helpless do you think Eddowes was in her inebriated state? Do you think she had trouble standing up straight and leaned on the Ripper for support, which may have been the basis for Lawende saying she saw the woman with her hand on the man's chest? Do you think maybe JTR , in his escape from the Stride killing, saw Kate walking and noticed she was having trouble walking and standing up and decided for himself that this would be an easy target to dominate?
                            Last edited by JTRSickert; 05-07-2010, 02:11 PM.
                            I won't make any deals. I've resigned. I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed,de-briefed, or numbered!

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Catherine Eddowes

                              Catherine, in my (very) humble opinion, could well have had an appointment with JTR. She twice asked the time when she was released (showing that it was important to her) and I have put forward the possibility that she wasnīt as drunk as she seemed and wanted a safe (and warm) place to wait in. She would have been well aware (and according to one newspaper report was aware) that she would be released when able to take care of herself as this was standard practice. If she turned in another direction to home, whatever she said she wasnīt planning to go staight home. Sadly she wasnīt able to "take care of herself" and if she thought she knew who JTR was she was sadly mistaken. She had failed in her attempt at earning money from hopping (a very bad year for hops - blight and so on) and perhaps the prospect of a reward was too tempting.

                              She seemed to have been a resourceful and bright woman who didnīt take to the streets as a first choice, unlike some of the other victims.

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