Did Catherine know who JTR was???

[Phil Carter]

Man ol' man... does anybody bother to read the evidence before hashing out some theory? All of the medicos agreed that the woman was attacked and killed and mutilated in the same spot.

Hello Hunter..

see above..my quote to Iain..

best wishes

Phil

[Addy]

Hi everybody,

I always thought the woman who told Kelly had seen Kate with the police officers after her arrest, so near the police station. Or perhaps she was in the crowd but didn't want to get involved? After all, not everyone would want to be associated with a drunken prostitute causing a nuisance.

Greetings,

Addy

[Jon Guy]

Hi Phil

Wilkinson KNEW Eddowes wasnt there, and knew of her whereabouts earlier that night..because Kelly told him..locked up.

Eddowes and Kelly hadn`t slept together at the Lodging House for five or six weeks. In fact, only Kelly had stayed at the Lodging House since their return from hop picking.

Wilkinson was hardly going to note her absence to the Police. Both he and Kelly thought Eddowes was locked up till the morning anyway.

So either Kelly is lying about the woman or... who is this woman that KNOWS them both?

I don`t see any mystery here, Phil?

Just some old woman who worked in the lane who tells Kelly that she has seen, an obviously drunk Eddowes, been carted off by two coppers.

[Adam Went]

It's probably worth adding as well that we know that from the way JTR killed his victims, he did it in such a way as to have minimal blood on his clothing and body, and therefore not arouse as much suspicion as he was escaping the scene.

Now aside from the medical evidence mentioned above, even if we assume that he did kill Kate, or any of his other victims for that matter, elsewhere and then carry them to the spot they were found, he would have had a lot more blood on him - think about it, it would have been all over him.

Not a good look as he was trying to get away....

Cheers,
Adam.

[harry]

How far would Eddowes have to be carried from where she was seen by Lawende?Perhaps a distance of twenty five to thirty yards.For a strong person perhaps a time of less than half a minute,and half a minute compared with the five minutes or more spent mutilating is very little additional risk,and he must have been in the passage and square at least five minutes without interuption or sighting after Lawende had passed,the known infomation on the killing leaves no doubt of that.
Why did there have to be blood at the entrance to the passage?I never suggested he used the knife there.There was more than one way to render her helpless.The trouble is,as has been stated often,suggestions become accepted as fact.In Eddowes case it is that she willingly accompanied the killer into the square.Now i do not know that she didn't,but where is the overwhelming evidence that she did?
What seems evident,from Lawendes account,is that she w as content with the situation at the time he passed.No plea or cry for help,which would have been the opportune time had there been need.Who accosted who is of course not known,but that she tarried to talk,and allowing for the close proximity of the pair,it might imply that there was mutual recognition of one for the other.Though each would have stopped for a different reason,there is no evidence that Eddowes had any particular designs,but what later followed leaves no doubt as to the male's intentions.

[harry]

Just one more observation.
'Dragging her through the streets of London'.I never suggested she was dragged anywhere,or for any great distance.The timings,as they are,leaves little room for her to have gone anywhere from where she was seen by Lawende.It is unwarrented statements like the above that distorts a reasonable discussion of Eddowes murder.

[Adam Went]

Harry:

So are you suggesting then that Kate was strangled on the spot that Lawende saw her, then carried into Mitre Square, and then cut in the corner she was found?

One question....what would possibly be the point of that?

For starters, he was at risk of being seen by other passers-by like Lawende and his friends. Second, the act of carrying the body into the square and placing it in the corner would have chewed up valuable minutes that he did not have to spare - he had no more than 10 minutes to strangle her, mutilate her and make his escape between Lawende's sighting at 1.32 AM and the discovery of the body at 1.44 AM.

It would have been a lot of unnecessary fooling around when, as the doctors said, it seemed to have all taken place in the one spot.

Cheers,
Adam.

[Steven Russell]

Dear curious,
I am curious as well as to your suggestion that Eddowes was "picked up on purpose".

Do you suggest that this was to secure somewhere to sleep? Possible I suppose.

Regards,

Steve.

[Addy]

It still implies he strangled Eddowes or rendered her senseless in another way in that well lit spot. And the fact that she seemed comfortable when Lawende saw her: it doesn't mean they knew each other. She was doing her "business" and I doubt she would have had much luck with customers if she acted any way different when approached or approaching.

How do you think she was rendered senseless?

Greetings,

Addy

[Hunter]

.In Eddowes case it is that she willingly accompanied the killer into the square. Now i do not know that she didn't, but where is the overwhelming evidence that she did?

The doctors' statements from the inquest.

Mr. Crawford: The theory has been put forward that it was possible for the deceased to have been murdered elsewhere, and her body brought to where it was found. I should like to ask Dr. Gordon Brown, who is present, what his opinion is about that.
Dr. Gordon Brown: I do not think there is any foundation for such a theory. The blood on the left side was clotted, and must have fallen at the time the throat was cut. I do not think that the deceased moved the least bit after that.
The Coroner: The body could not have been carried to where it was found? - Witness: Oh, no.

[harry]

Let us get something straight.What I have written,and what I stand by,is the possibilites of the situation.I have not stated that I believe it happened that way,only that it is possible to have.I have not said or implied that she was strangled to death or rendered senseless.The words I used was rendered helpless.Read what I write carefully,and do not distort the wording to suit your answers.
There was a risk in everything the killer did.No doubt he allowed for that.Anyone could have turned up in any of the killings.There is no reason to believe it might have happened more so in Mitre Square or the passage leading there.There is no evidence that she intended to do anything other than to go from one location to another undisclosed one.It is as feasable to suggest she stopped to talk to a person she knew,as it is to claim she was doing her business,whatever that business might be.
Hunter,
Was doctor Brown referring to a time before the body was placed in the spot and in the state it was found.?I fail to understand how he could come to any conclusion about how she arrived there,where she had come from,or in what manner she had arrived.He could certainly claim she was not moved after the throat was cut and the mutilatin was carried out,but how does that suggest a manner of arrival?

[Adam Went]

If you want to consider possibilities, anything is possible. You could suggest that she was killed at the police station and then taken to Mitre Square by an officer if you wanted to. I've heard whackier theories. But it's about suggesting possibilities that actually correspond with the evidence. And all evidence points to the entire deed being done in the one spot, not just in her murder, but in all of the other murders as well.

There's no reason to think that Jack would deviate from what we know he did in the other 4 canonical murders as well....

However, I understand that you are just making suggestions, so I'll leave it at that.

Cheers,
Adam.

[Phil Carter]

Hello Adam,

May I throw this one out at you to chew over?

What chance Kelly, her boyfriend, killed her?

best wishes

Phil

[Iain Wilson]

In Eddowes case it is that she willingly accompanied the killer into the square.Now i do not know that she didn't,but where is the overwhelming evidence that she did?

She was a known prostitute that wanted somewhere secluded to go with a potential client? I don't see why this is an unreasonable assumption to make. Bear in mind that she didn't know that whoever she met was the killer otherwise she most certainly would NOT have gone into the square with him!

It is unwarrented statements like the above that distorts a reasonable discussion of Eddowes murder.

Exactly what was "unwarrented" about me disagreeing with your theory? I offered a reasonable explaination of why I didn't subscribe to your theory. The fact that you didn't clearly indicate in your original posting just how far you believed Eddowes may have been carried doesn't in any way invalidate my opinion!

[Iain Wilson]

Hello Adam,

May I throw this one out at you to chew over?

What chance Kelly, her boyfriend, killed her?

best wishes

Phil

I know I'm not Adam, but if I may ask are you considering Kelly as the Ripper or just the murderer of Kate Eddowes?