Did Catherine know who JTR was???

[Hunter]

The point is that Eddowes made every effort to be released from her cell when normal practice was to keep quiet and get your head down till morning. Why? What was so important that she had to be back on the streets?

Maybe she thought she was going to get a "hiding" when she got home, having blown her money on drink while Kelly didn't even have a pair of shoes. If she was released early enough she could fall back on that oldest of professions to earn a little money before she had to face her man. Waiting until morning would have been too late. I believe that would explain why she ended up in Mitre Square. Desperate circumstances call for desperate measures. Nichols and Chapman had no doss money. Stride was back on her own after leaving Kidney and Mary Jane was behind on the rent and on her own too. They all just ran into the wrong guy who sought the easiest prey he could find. Seems simple but logical to me. I don't think we have to read any more into it than that, though alot of people like to.

[Monty]

Sound words Hunter.

Very sound.

Monty

[Phil Carter]

Hello all,

An equally good question that could be considered.. not did Eddowes know her killer?... but did the killer know Eddowes?

I put no weight upon this, but something to consider perhaps?

best wishes

Phil

[Steven Russell]

Dear Phil,
Eddleston seems to think so based on the facial mutilations. Seems a bit weak to me, though.

Regards,

Steve.

[Phil Carter]

Hello Steven,

The stronger arguement of the killer knowing who Eddowes was, would be if the killer was a policeman, no?
I am not saying it was a policeman, but I think that is stronger than the facial mutilation arguement, which I very gently, propose could have been for non-recognition purposes.

best wishes

Phil

[Steven Russell]

Dear Phil,
What makes you suggest that the killer knew Eddowes? Or, for that matter, that he was a policeman?

It is always suggested in the case of serial killers that policemen are responsible; presumably because it takes a long time to catch these maniacs and a convenient reason is that a copper could come and go as he pleased. Kenneth Bianchi of the Hillside Stranglers would dress up as a cop but he was a wannabe cop and had been rejected by several forces. There are very few instances of actual policemen being serial killers.

Having said that, my father was a detective in the north east of England during the Yorkshire Ripper case and told me that there was a widespread belief within the force that the perpetrator may have been a policeman based on slang terms contained within the famous letters and tapes. Of course, it turned out that these were hoaxes perpetrated by that idiot, Humble. My point is that the police in general are not averse to fingering one of their own if they believe he has "crossed the line".

Whatever your views of the police may be, it has been my experience that they have a sincere (perhaps slightly over-zealous) hatred of "villains" and if JTR had been a policeman, he would have been caught and very publicly prosecuted.

Regarding Eddowes' facial mutilations, if the killer wished to obscure her identity, he did not do a very good job.

I apologise for the somewhat bombastic tone of this post having read through it but would be very interested to know where you are going with your idea that Eddowes was known to her killer.

No offence intended,

Steve.

[Phil Carter]

Hello Steve,

No apologies needed, no offence taken. Just to balance this, I have a tremendous respect for the police force, and have personal, long standing friends in the force.

I didn't suggest it (re.policeman), I just said that IF the killer knew Eddowes, it would be feasable to include a policeman. That is all.

I didn't suggest the killer DID know Eddowes, but just reversed the question.

There are six possibilities:-
1) Eddowes knew the killer
2) Eddowes did not know the killer
3) The killer knew Eddowes
4) The killer did not know Eddowes.
5) Eddowes and the killer knew each other
6) Eddowes and the killer did not know each other.

When it comes to Catharine Eddowes, only ONE thing is certain that could..and I put this very gently, could, point a finger towards a policeman.
Dectective Constable Halse. I believe I am correct in saying that Halse was present both at Mitre Square and TWICE, after the murdered body was discovered, in Goulston Street, site of the found apron and the graffito.
He is the only known named person present at BOTH locations.
I just leave that in the air, for others to contemplate.

best wishes

Phil

[Addy]

It is an interesting question, however wouldn't that point to the killer also knowing Mary Kelly? The actual report on her said the face was hacked beyond recognition.

Greetings,

Addy

[Steven Russell]

According to the A-Z, Halse "directed an immediate search of the district, and himself went via Middlesex Street to Wentworth Street..." I wonder what prompted him to pick Middlesex St. Our good friend Jacob Levy lived there...

I like DC Halse since he suggested the GSG be photographed even though he may well have suspected it had little bearing on the case. Still, he does not seem to have been a favourite of the bosses since he only attained the rank of Detective Constable after 28 years' service. I wonder why. Perhaps he was simply not very good (we cannot all excel at our chosen professions) or perhaps he had a fondness for drink - a not uncommon malaise in the force at that time. The latter possibility casts doubt on his testimony.

We may never know.

Best wishes,

Steve.

[Steven Russell]

Dear Addy,
Yes. Eddleston suggests that the killer knew Eddowes by sight but was well acquainted with Kelly. This is part of his (Eccleston's) main thrust for fingering George Hutchinson as JTR.

My own view is that in the case of Mary Jane Kelly, JTR was undisturbed (being indoors) and therefore able to give full vent to his sick fantasies.

Regards,

Steve.

[curious]

The point is that Eddowes made every effort to be released from her cell when normal practice was to keep quiet and get your head down till morning. Why? What was so important that she had to be back on the streets?

Wasn't this the same night as the post office robbery very close to Mitre Square?

curious

[Phil Carter]

Curious, Bob, all,

This, I feel, is very important. Someone please correct me if I am wrong...

Frederick William Williamson, Lodging House deputy, said the following at the inquest..

"When Kelly came in on Saturday night between half past 7 and 8 I asked him, 'Where's Kate?' He said, "I have heard she's been locked up'

Now forgive me for being a bit pickish here... but... according to the police at the inquest...

Louis Robinson City Police Constable 931

"On the 29th at 8.30 I was on duty in Aldgate High Street...I saw a woman whom I have since recognised as the deceased lying on the footway drunk. ...I asked if there was one that knew her or knew where she lkived but I got no answer....We then took her to Bishopsgate Police Station.... The last time I saw her in the police cell was at 10 to 9..."

and...

"No one particular appeared to be in her company when we first picked her up."


James Byfield, Station Sergeant, Bishopsgate Police Station

"I remember the deceased being brought in at 1/4 to 9 on the evening of the 29th...."

2 questions...

1) How in heavens name did Kelly KNOW Eddowes was "locked up"?

2) To WHOM did Robinson ask his question, receiving no answer?

Who is lying?

best wishes

Phil

[Adam Went]

Well it's always possible that somebody who knew Eddowes saw her masquerading around drunk just before being arrested and informed Kelly of this. Or perhaps Williamson got his times confused - not really a big deal, I don't think.

As for Halse.....he was searching some buildings with other police officers in Houndsditch when the murder in Mitre Square took place. He was definitely not there during the time that the murder took place, and definitely not the first officer on the scene.

Besides that, there was a currently serving police officer living in a house which more or less overlooked the murder site. Aside from the fact that a colleague would probably be aware of this and choose another spot to kill if he was responsible, if the policeman had woken up and happened to take a look outside, having heard some commotion, etc, and seen one of his fellow officers "in the act" - I'd say it wouldn't have exactly gone down too well.

If Jack was a frequenter of prostitutes, it's possible that he had come across Kate before. He might have known her to recognise her if he passed her in the street or whatever, but much less likely that they had any kind of personal relationship. This was the East End after all, and despite living right near each other, it was not a small town scenario where everybody knew everybody.

And again, we have no reason to believe that Kate's statement that she knew who the killer was, was anything more than an attempt at impressing her friends, or just weighing in as everybody else was doing at the time as well....it might well have been the same scenario even if it had been a different victim.

Cheers,
Adam.

[Phil Carter]

Hello all,

addition to the above..

According to Kelly himself at the inquest, he "had heard that she had been locked up on Saturday night at Bishopsgate. He was told by a woman that she had seen the deceased in HOUNDSDITCH with two policemen. He could not say what time it was when he heard that statement..... "

best wishes

Phil

[Phil Carter]

and further..

When Wilkinson was asked by Crawford at the inquest..
"Can you tell me who entered your lodging house on SUNDAY morning between 1 and 2?"

Wilkinson replied..

"Two detectives came and asked if I had any female out."

He was then recalled and said that the police were there at 3 o'clock in the morning...

So inside the same hour of the murder, the police walked straight into the correct lodging house, asking the lodging house deputy if he was missing a woman...or....they didn't....it was an hour later....

How, or indeed, did the police know where to go?

best wishes

Phil