Kate's choice of "Mary Ann Kelly"

[DVV]

I have to say that if I were a prostitute working in an area where prostitutes were being murdered I would be afraid of someone.

Indeed Kat,

but you know how aggravating is this Barnett sentence for anyone interested in Fleming...?

Amitiés,
David

[perrymason]

I have to say that if I were a prostitute working in an area where prostitutes were being murdered I would be afraid of someone.

A seemingly logical position to be sure Kate, but in reality, Mary did not have to risk her neck every night out on the street to earn her doss. One wonders if her fears were irrational to some extent in context, because before Mary is killed no-one expected an indoor Ripper kill.

Mary could it seems continue to run arrears and stay indoors if she felt that her safety was an issue, McCarthy says himself that "arrears were collected as best one could" and he doesnt suggest that Mary was on the verge of eviction....which she really should have been with what we know about other landlords.

I submit that Marys fears may have more to do with her life in general than any Ripper scare ongoing. And the evidence, what there is of it, suggests by the venue and the likelihood that her killer came to her room specifically....that her killer may well have been from her "life in general".

Best regards Kate

[KatBradshaw]

Indeed Kat,

but you know how aggravating is this Barnett sentence for anyone interested in Fleming...?

Amitiés,
David

Actually, no, but I would really appreciate you filling me in as I have beccome more and more intrigued by the Barnett, Flemming, Hutchinson issue.

[KatBradshaw]

Hi there. I am trying out the quote system which I may or may not get right so here goes....

A seemingly logical position to be sure Kate, but in reality, Mary did not have to risk her neck every night out on the street to earn her doss.

If by this you mean she did not have to conduct business on the street then no, you are right. Prostitution was a high risk proffession though wherever it was. I am trying to remember the name of the recent case where this occured actually but it escapes me.

One wonders if her fears were irrational to some extent in context, because before Mary is killed no-one expected an indoor Ripper kill.

Do we really know what people were expecting?? We know that the case supposedly ends with Kelly, but at the time of her death there had been a long time since the last murders, which were relatively close together. The press were whipping up the hyesteria in the area to keep their sales up as well.

Mary could it seems continue to run arrears and stay indoors if she felt that her safety was an issue, McCarthy says himself that "arrears were collected as best one could" and he doesnt suggest that Mary was on the verge of eviction....which she really should have been with what we know about other landlords.

I have always been intrigued by the fact that Mary was allowed to build up these areas. 29 shillings was a lot of money! I was interested in the point made on Rippercast that this is not an exact ammount for 6 weeks rent. Why would a businessman let this happen. But that is another issue.......

I submit that Mary's fears may have more to do with her life in general than any Ripper scare ongoing. And the evidence, what there is of it, suggests by the venue and the likelihood that her killer came to her room specifically....that her killer may well have been from her "life in general".

Is this true if Mary worked regularly out of the room? That is what we don't know. We know that Barnett was not happy that she let other women stay and alluded that they were prostitiutes. Mary worked as a prostitute, that we know, but when?

Thanks for your message though, I hope I have answered you as curtiously as you have asked me.

[Sam Flynn]

We know that Barnett was not happy that she let other women stay and alluded that they were prostitiutes.

In the interests of accuracy (and the prevention of others going off on tangents), Barnett referred to only one woman staying with Mary - and that only recently, in that he claimed it was the reason for his leaving Miller's Court.

[perrymason]

On one of your last points, I think you misunderstood me....I wasnt suggesting that Mary could stay indoors and work at all....because aside from Blotchy Face, there is no record of her ever bringing anyone who could be considered a client to that room. Despite the fact that since the end of October, she could have.

I think with a room in her name, and her arrears already existing, she may have opted not to work outdoors if she was scared on a particular night, or if it was pouring outside... ..and just potentially add to her debt instead.

Cheers Kate

[KatBradshaw]

In the interests of accuracy (and the prevention of others going off on tangents), Barnett referred to only one woman staying with Mary - and that only recently, in that he claimed it was the reason for his leaving Miller's Court.

Yes, you are, of course, right Sam. Many thanks for the timely correction.

[KatBradshaw]

Hi again, as I got the quote but right I will try again....little devil that I am.

because aside from Blotchy Face, there is no record of her ever bringing anyone who could be considered a client to that room. Despite the fact that since the end of October, she could have.

Do we know this? There are no accounts of her having clients that is true, but why would there be? People were not being asked to account for her actions weeks or even many days before her death. Plus people would have been keen not to suggest that they were condoning prostitution or living off imoral earnings. Mary may well have gone back to her old ways after Barnett left.

I think with a room in her name, and her arrears already existing, she may have opted not to work outdoors if she was scared on a particular night, or if it was pouring outside... ..and just potentially add to her debt instead.

I would certainly llike to know where the money she bought the fish and potatos that she had came from. Possible from Barnett if she saw him the night before but otherwise I assume from turning tricks.

[j.r-ahde]

Hello Kat!

Well, I think MJK lost her life, because she thought to run her business safe indoors!

I don't find it impossible, that after the double event JtR felt the Vigilance Committee being on his heels. He may also have had an impression, that the girls of the streets had become too cautious!

All the best
Jukka

[perrymason]

We know that Mary received a few pennies from Maria that afternoon, not what that was for, loan or pay or gift, and we know Liz earned 6d.

Yet Mary is the one that is hammered by midnight, and has already likely... or will soon thereafter... had something warm to eat.

Kate seems to accomplish this during her last afternoon, for she is 3 sheets to the wind by 8pm. Not many homeless Unfortunates as Day Hookers I would imagine, thats a gutsy move if so.

Men buy women drinks in bars, no secret there.....sometimes with something they want in return in mind, sometimes to be perceived as nice guys. Sometimes because they lost a bet to the woman who is a killer dart player. But thats not whoring....in either case.

Both it appears got hammered with very little or no money and one of them may even have been bought a late dinner....without any known "services" exchanges.

Cheers all.

[Supe]

Ah well, Michael's "King Charles' Head" has once again appeared. Goodbye to any further discussion of Kate's choice of alias, I fear.

Don.

[Supe]

Sox,

You say that it is nothing more than coincidence

Please do not ascribe to me statements that I did not make. In the course of this thread I never said the similarity in names of the last two of the Canonic Five was "nothing more than coincidence," nor would I. Rather, I originally simply suggested that counter-intuitive "coincidence" is often the answer to such a seeming link. By all means, explore this similarity of names, but do so with an open mind, and if you find there was something more than coincidence involved I shall be among the first to congratulate you. But do make sure when you do this research that you don't make any errors like you did with me; that is, having people say something they didn't.

Don.

[KatBradshaw]

Men buy women drinks in bars, no secret there.....sometimes with something they want in return in mind, sometimes to be perceived as nice guys.

Do they? Damn it I must play this game better

Appologies to Don that we have taken this off track.
To go back to the point I thought I might suggest we make a list of the Mary Anns that we know in the case.

1. Mary Ann Cox.
2. Mary Ann Nichols.
3. Mary Ann Kelly, John Kelly's first wife
4. A Mary Ann who identified one of the victims, sorry am in my folks car and can't check.

[Chadwick]

Links

I'm sorry, but there is nothing obscure about.... "She had on several occasions asked me to read about the murders she seemed afraid of someone, she did not express fear of any particular individual except when she rowed with me but we always came to terms quickly."....let me put that into plainer english for you.

Barnett:''Mary got me to read about the murders a few times, from the papers. I got the feeling that she was scared of someone''

Police Officer: '' Did she say who she was scared of?''

Barnett: ''Nah, she never said who, apart from when we used to row and fight, she told me I scared her when I was in a temper, but it never lasted long''

According to Barnett ( and I admit I'm always more than a little wary of anything he says) Kelly was asking him to read about the killings and, and please note this, she seemed afraid of someone. Not afraid of something but afraid of someone.

Now add to that Catherine Eddowes saying "I have come back to earn the reward offered for the apprehension of the Whitechapel murderer. I think I know him."

You have Eddowes claiming to know the killer and you have Kelly being afraid of someone in connection with the Whitechapel murders. Both women, at some point, use the same name. Those are, at best, shaky links between Eddowes & Kelly, but they are links.

Sox
I found your insight very interesting. I'm new to these pages. When did Kate say that she had come back to claim the reward? Was it the night she was murdered when she was in the police station?

Best to you.

[corey123]

Do they? Damn it I must play this game better

Appologies to Don that we have taken this off track.
To go back to the point I thought I might suggest we make a list of the Mary Anns that we know in the case.

1. Mary Ann Cox.
2. Mary Ann Nichols.
3. Mary Ann Kelly, John Kelly's first wife
4. A Mary Ann who identified one of the victims, sorry am in my folks car and can't check.

Mary ann monk who identifyed nichols.
she was another inmate at the workhouse.