Kate's choice of "Mary Ann Kelly"

[perrymason]

Hello Sox.

"In terms of a killer looking for these women by name then I think that we can pretty much discount any notion that he 'knew' his victims....if he did indeed know them then he would surely have been asking around for 'Polly' or 'Long Liz' or a 'Dark Annie'....easily found no?"

Of course, this assumes ONE killer. I am not forced to make such an assumption. I tend to link Polly and Annie whilst linking Kate and Mary Jane. (Oops! Time to start dodging!)

The best.
LC

Now youre talking Lynn.

My best regards

[Jon Guy]

I see. Singular. I had understood plural. Mea culpa.

And what were we to induce here?

Do you suppose it significant that, for some reason, she refused to divulge her name earlier? (Recall her reply, "Nothing.") What was she hiding, if anything?

Sorry Lynn, I forgot the other biggy. She is mid 40`s, and gives the name Mary Ann Kelly and an address in Fashion St.

Regarding the nothing reply. She was out of her skull. She had been lying on the pavement fifteen minutes or so earlier. The copper couldn`t even get her to sit up straight. She wasn`t hiding anything.

[perrymason]

Sorry Lynn, I forgot the other biggy. She is mid 40`s, and gives the name Mary Ann Kelly and an address in Fashion St.

Regarding the nothing reply. She was out of her skull. She had been lying on the pavement fifteen minutes or so earlier. The copper couldn`t even get her to sit up straight. She wasn`t hiding anything.

Catherine Eddowes had no known need to offer a fake name to a pawnbroker nor did she have any reason to offer a different one later that same day to the Police....she would have been released by City Cops when she seemed sober enough, they could have poured her under the bars on the cell and that still would have applied. A Met jail for her "offense" at that time meant the full night in the cell.,,,had she been a fire engine outside a Metro pub she would have lived that night.

No charges pending for her outburst, none laid.

So.....and I am interested...without knowing that Kate had any police issues and needed an alias,...and accounting for the fact that she has only been back in town less than a week.......would someone please provide 1 sound provable reason, or at least a sound one.... that she would need an alias for either of those 2 transactions.

I ask that rhetorically.

Best regards all.

[perrymason]

Methinks sometimes a very good place to look for evidence of crimes isnt always among the lives of the criminals themselves my friend....and Israel is inconsequential historically and with me currently.

On this MJ bit though.....I suggested a statistical evaluation of the probability that a woman would randomly choose to create 2 false ID's within her last 24 hours, that when combined are 98% of the full name and address of the next victim killed by the man that later that day killed the woman herself.

I know Sam could calculate the odds of that happening....not my cup of tea though....anyone?

My best regards David, all.

Theres a huge elephant thats been in this thread since this post....which in and of itself could illustrate how unlikely it was statistically for her to have chosen the names and addresses she did completely at random, and to have that same name and address be almost the identical stats of the next consecutive victim of the same killer.

Before a lot more time is wasted on this question...if someone is statistically inclined, perhaps they might venture some numbers for the above.

As probable as a 2 headed cow....as an unexpected Eclipse...or as probable as throwing a coin in the Thames and have it come to rest on another coin of the same denomination?

Best regards all

[Sox]

Hello Sox.

"In terms of a killer looking for these women by name then I think that we can pretty much discount any notion that he 'knew' his victims....if he did indeed know them then he would surely have been asking around for 'Polly' or 'Long Liz' or a 'Dark Annie'....easily found no?"

Of course, this assumes ONE killer. I am not forced to make such an assumption. I tend to link Polly and Annie whilst linking Kate and Mary Jane. (Oops! Time to start dodging!)

The best.
LC

I first started into all this 30 years ago, and thats basically the train of thought I began with, looking at them as individual, rather than linked, crimes. I found though, that there are some roads you can travel down in Ripper research from which you can never return. Set some things in stone or you will end up spinning around in never ending circles. The Mary (insert middle name) Kelly debate is one of those circles.

Logic tells us that the chances of the last two victims both going by the name of Mary Kelly, by mere chance, are astronomical. Yet some researchers will tell you that it is not unusual...and around and around you will go.

I agree totally with your comment that there are links between the killing of Nichols & Chapman and links between the deaths of Eddowes & Kelly, but the difference is, that I think that those links were in the mind of one man, not two.

Whoever this killer was, I think he may well have been looking for Mary Kelly, but I do not think that he knew her.

[lynn cates]

Mary Kelly

Hello Sox.

"I agree totally with your comment that there are links between the killing of Nichols & Chapman and links between the deaths of Eddowes & Kelly, but the difference is, that I think that those links were in the mind of one man, not two."

Very well. That's the majority report. It would appeal to my romantic side if ALL the WC killings were the work of one man.

"Whoever this killer was, I think he may well have been looking for Mary Kelly, but I do not think that he knew her."

I think we can agree here. The question, of course, is WHY was he looking for her?

The best.
LC

[DVV]

Hi all,

As far as I'm concerned, the name given by Eddowes at the station has nothing to do with Mary Kelly.

She was a perfect nobody in the East End.
Romance apart, what have we? Barnett's testimony. That of one or two fellow infortunates. Dew's memories, fifty years after.
I'm sure Liz Stride was a more notorious character.

But I'm of opinion that the Ripper knew her.

Amitiés,
David

[perrymason]

Hi all,

As far as I'm concerned, the name given by Eddowes at the station has nothing to do with Mary Kelly.

She was a perfect nobody in the East End.
Romance apart, what have we? Barnett's testimony. That of one or two fellow infortunates. Dew's memories, fifty years after.
I'm sure Liz Stride was a more notorious character.

But I'm of opinion that the Ripper knew her.

Amitiés,
David

If that line in bold refers to Kelly, I would agree that her killer knew her based on the evidence available.

And I wouldnt agree that its beyond reason that perhaps all of the Canonicals or some of them knew each other even casually and perhaps their eventual killers. Look at Dorset as a possible spot to have met.....the pubs, the lodgings,...we know at least 2 characters in these stories knew each other from that street, and that 2 other Canonicals lived on it at the time. One met her death off just off that street in a courtyard, and one was murdered after she left that street one night to earn her bed.

Best regards David

[Supe]

Sox,

Logic tells us that the chances of the last two victims both going by the name of Mary Kelly, by mere chance, are astronomical.

Logic tells us no such thing and how do you know the odds are astronomical? It would seem that rather than logic you are basing your belief on intuition and intuition and statistical analysis are almost always mutually inimical.

Don.

[richardnunweek]

Hi Guys,
The obvious choice of a surname for Eddowes was Kelly , being it was her fellas name, however Barnett was known initially by McCarthy as Kelly, when they moved into room 13 in the feb of 88, and it was only because she posed as his wife, MJK became known as Mary Jane Kelly by the landlord.
However Kelly was a alias for Barnett, but when McCarthy and Co, became aware of that is not precisely known.
It is assumed that Marys name was kelly, but Mccarthy originally believed that it was the surname of JB, which suggests that it may have been possible that her killer was after someone who lived with a man called kelly, that had a connection with Dorset street.which may have had connections with Eddowes name and pawn ticket, found on her body.
Regard Richard.

[curious]

Thats my point, even if she gives her name as Catherine Eddowes, she's still unknown to the Police, because in 1888 they have no way of tracking her down via her name unless she has an address, which she does not. )

Perhaps just an attempt to try to maintain a little dignity. Her sister and Kelly both said she was of sober habits. She was said to be jolly and often sang, but of sober habits -- strange she got so drunk she was making a fire engine sound!

Catherine had children, perhaps to protect her image with them a little. If the police don't have her real name, it was someone else who was arrested. As a name, Catherine Eddowes is certainly more rare than Mary Ann Kelly.

Years ago, a fella I went to school with had been to Atlanta, Ga., the closest big town to where I live. There he'd run into one of our former schoolmates working underground Atlanta. She begged him not to tell anyone he'd seen her. She had told her mother she was working in an art gallery.

Just, perhaps, to save a little face.

curious

[curious]

Well, she claimed to be. It has been said that she claimed to have been back to claim the reward money for "Jack."

The best.
LC

I was under the impression that it was more than that. Don't know where I've seen that, will have to go look.

[KatBradshaw]

Perhaps just an attempt to try to maintain a little dignity. Her sister and Kelly both said she was of sober habits. She was said to be jolly and often sang, but of sober habits -- strange she got so drunk she was making a fire engine sound!

The fire engine story has been debunked now.
Families certainly try to protect eachother, no more so than in the LVP. In today's world we tend not to judge a whole family by the bad habits of one but in the past 'shame' would be brought on the whole family.

I am still of the opinion that we are pulling a lot of random facts and bending them to fit. The fact is that Eddowes does NOT say that her name is Mary Jane Kelly or give either 13 Millers Court or 26 Dorset Street as her address.

The area of the killings was really quite small. The proffessional district of these woman was fairly centralised. The fact is that many many people lived and worked on Dorset Street.

I feel almost as if we are staring at 'The Last Supper' trying to see a woman and a challice but really what we have is an effeminate man and a pillar.

[perrymason]

I was under the impression that it was more than that. Don't know where I've seen that, will have to go look.

It is just a story unfortunately because it was never really checked or confirmed. But what an interesting story considering that last day, really drunk with no money, the Kelly and Dorset references as aliases and the fact that she is even in Mitre Square after being released...when by John's historical remarks, they slept together most every night.

I would venture though that if true she might find someone to spot her some booze that afternoon based on the reward money paying them back. Maybe the wrong person heard of this, and arranged a meeting for sometime very late at night...even a rough time, since her incarceration suggests they could not know specifically when she would be released. "You'll see a man with a red scarf, he'll take you to....."

Best regards curious

[curious]

It is just a story unfortunately because it was never really checked or confirmed. But what an interesting story considering that last day, really drunk with no money, the Kelly and Dorset references as aliases and the fact that she is even in Mitre Square after being released...when by John's historical remarks, they slept together most every night.

Best regards curious

the reported conversation as she was leaving the jail:
She leaves the station at 1:00 AM.
"What time is it?" she asks Hutt.
"Too late for you to get anything to drink." he replies.
"I shall get a damn fine hiding when I get home." She tells him.
Hutt replies, " And serve you right, you had no right to get drunk."
Hutt pushes open the swinging door of that station.
"This way missus," he says, "please pull it to."
"All right'" Kate replies, "Goodnight, old ****."


Her "I shall get a damn fine hiding when I get home," suggests she was heading home. Or maybe she was taking the long way home because of the expected hiding. . . .


curious