Kate's choice of "Mary Ann Kelly"

[Sox]

I'll risk going off topic here just to tell you of something that always intrigued me. Frances Coles had been given money to buy a new bonnet not long before she died....ring a bell? Tentative link.

If (and that is a huge if) the focus of Jacks madness was Mary Kelly, then he could well have been looking for her. Kelly herself need never have even spoken to this man, I always think of something Peter Sutcliffe once said in his early interviews. He 'claimed' that his murderous rampage was triggered by a prostitute who had 'cheated' him, there is no doubt that this was all in his own mind, nonetheless, he went on to kill many times because of that imagined slight.

I have never been a fan of conspiracy theories, I have always believed that Jack was insane. If the killer was searching for Mary Kelly, or even if he was just using her image as a focus for his rage, then it was because he was mad, and not because she was at the center of any plots.

[DVV]

Hi Curious and Sox,

nothing has been overlooked here, imo.
It simply leads nowhere.
If Mary Kelly had known one of the victims, it would have been know, because the question of her interest in the crimes has been answered by Barnett.
And let alone Barnett, Mary would certainly have delivered such information to her friends Venturney or Harvey.
What do prostitutes talk about, when prostitutes murders take place where they live ?

Amitiés,
David

[curious]

There is also circumstantial evidence that some of the victims may have been searched, that the killer was looking for something is not beyond the realms of possibility, and it follows that this 'something' could have been a person.

You also get that often mentioned gap between Eddowes death, and Kellys murder. Did Jack spend that time trying to rectify a mistake?

As you full well know, links between victims in serial murders is very very rare indeed and yet here we have a link, albeit a tentative one, between the Whitechapel Killers last two victims that has largely been overlooked. Maybe if the Police of the time had given in to a little 'intuition' we would not be playing guessing games in 2009.

Great Sox!

Looking for someone? Any ideas? I had arrived at the possibility that the killer was looking for "something." That he was looking for someone had never occurred to me -- except that perhaps in the last two killings he was looking for a Mary Kelly (and why? any ideas?)

Looking for someone would explain the conversations -- or arguments. Tabrum: The landlord, who heard nothing, but supposed an argument would be involved.
Chapman: Cadosch heard an argument. (however, at this time, I think Annie was already dead by the time Cadosch says he was making the trips to the privy)

There seem to be several links that the authorities overlooked (or from my newness, appear to have overlooked.)

As you mentioned, the linking of the two names.

I see a link between the first three all having something new. Women too poor to have a roof over their heads all had something new or "recently acquired."

Very interesting, Sox,

I'd like to hear more.

curious

[DVV]

All this is not to throw some new conspiracy theory to the forefront, nor is it an attempt to rehash old ones. One man could simply have hated one woman for some reason, rage and anger have made serial murderers do stranger things that Jack the Ripper after all.

Hi Sox,

conclusion agreed. I'm with you about the motive, and consider that Mary Kelly might have been both the trigger and the conclusion.
But that doesn't necessarily imply that Kate's "Mary Ann Kelly" wasn't a mere coincidence.
If the name of "Kelly" was "familiar" to Kate, it must be primarily because of her acquaintance with the man Kelly. Most probably, I mean.
And it can hardly be denied, all these women were (un)known under numerous names.

Amitiés,
David

[Sox]

Sox,

Logic tells us that the chances of the last two victims both going by the name of Mary Kelly, by mere chance, are astronomical.

Logic tells us no such thing and how do you know the odds are astronomical? It would seem that rather than logic you are basing your belief on intuition and intuition and statistical analysis are almost always mutually inimical.

Don.

Apparently you are one of the many people in this particular field who maintain that the extraordinary is mundane, bravo for you. Intuition? You of course can sit at your desk and make yourself believe that the Whitechapel Killers last two victims went by the name of Mary Kelly, and that this simple fact proves nothing.

Well of course it proves nothing, but please don't try to tell me, that in an area as small as Whitechapel, the odds of a serial killer butchering two women both called Mary Kelly are good. Not only killing them, but one after the other, and with striking ferocity as well.

You do not find it strange that she gives her name as Mary Kelly on the night she dies? Even when John Kelly says that he knew her as Kate Conway, even after Eddowes herself maintains pride in the name Conway 'bought and paid for'? Questions that are never asked are never answered, and intuition can take you a long way when solid facts are thin on the ground....as long as that intuition has a basis in fact

And you cannot dispute that Jack the Rippers last two victims, at some point, both used the name Mary Kelly. You also cannot dispute that both these women died in a way that showed an attention to detail/rage/ferocity, call it what you will, that had increased markedly.

There is also circumstantial evidence that some of the victims may have been searched, that the killer was looking for something is not beyond the realms of possibility, and it follows that this 'something' could have been a person.

You also get that often mentioned gap between Eddowes death, and Kellys murder. Did Jack spend that time trying to rectify a mistake?

As you full well know, links between victims in serial murders is very very rare indeed and yet here we have a link, albeit a tentative one, between the Whitechapel Killers last two victims that has largely been overlooked. Maybe if the Police of the time had given in to a little 'intuition' we would not be playing guessing games in 2009.

All this is not to throw some new conspiracy theory to the forefront, nor is it an attempt to rehash old ones. One man could simply have hated one woman for some reason, rage and anger have made serial murderers do stranger things that Jack the Ripper after all.

[lynn cates]

cases

Hello DVV. I think I do. I tried to get information from a thread some time ago, and 2 veterans, both published, were going at one another hot and heavy. I finally threw up the sponge and sought information elsewhere.

And the other case. Do you recall the "reincarnated" Prince chap who insisted that he was Jack? A tad eerie, no?

The best.
LC

[DVV]

Hello DVV. I'm with you. I love the lively exchanges in some threads. But sometimes, there is that lapse into acrimony. I'm delighted that we can have a good, intelligent exchange without that.

I salute you.

The best.
LC

Thanks Lynn, I agree
My Provençal salutations

Of course there is a limit. But in fact there are two types of problems, when it goes beyond it.
1: when knowledgeable posters are involved (see who I mean?!).
2: the troll case.

I suppose we have to accept that 2 or 3 times a year, a lunatic comes down... That's part of casebook, and hard times make good memories.

Amitiés,
David

[lynn cates]

exchange

Hello DVV. I'm with you. I love the lively exchanges in some threads. But sometimes, there is that lapse into acrimony. I'm delighted that we can have a good, intelligent exchange without that.

I salute you.

The best.
LC

[DVV]

All good things come to those who wait. I've seen threads with no replies for days, then suddenly, they take off.

The best.
LC

How true... I even recall a thread that slept for months, then the most foolish French author Herfort suddenly jumped in, and it was war for weeks.

Ah, that were days!

Amitiés,
David

[joelhall]

Perhaps just an attempt to try to maintain a little dignity....
Just, perhaps, to save a little face.

or conversely - she may have given the alias to blacken the name of someone else she didnt like, such as a lady well known for drinking, mary kelly. obviously i cannot prove this just food for thought.

besides, i was under the impression her family and friends knew she was in the police station for drinking that night?

[lynn cates]

soon

Hello Curious.

"Lynn, I did move and start a new thread, but it's getting no look-sees or replies."

All good things come to those who wait. I've seen threads with no replies for days, then suddenly, they take off.

The best.
LC

[curious]

Hi Curious,

although I enjoy and appreciate Mike's efforts, I see no big problems here.
Even if we accept the "classic" chronology, ie Stride murdered at about 12:45/12:55, the killer had time enough to reach Mitre Square and convince Kate to follow him to the corner.

Amitiés,
David

I don't see a problem either, David.

In fact, seeing Kate exactly as both Polly and Annie -- broke and no place to lay their heads or stop in to rest --

She matches earlier victims exactly on those points - wandering around and needing the money.

Still Stride and Eddowes were killed hours earlier than Polly or Annie.

WHY?

I'm guessing there's absolutely no evidence to suggest why? or is there and I haven't found it yet?

Lynn, I did move and start a new thread, but it's getting no look-sees or replies.

curious

[DVV]

Was JtR out earlier Sept. 30 than he was with the other two? or did it take him longer to find someone suitable on those other nights? Did he wander around 2 or 3 hours or more looking for a suitable subject?

Wonder why?

Of course, on Timings at Dutfields Yard-From The IWMA thread
PerryMason makes the point that the IWMA meeting broke up earlier than it did most evenings.

curious

Hi Curious,

although I enjoy and appreciate Mike's efforts, I see no big problems here.
Even if we accept the "classic" chronology, ie Stride murdered at about 12:45/12:55, the killer had time enough to reach Mitre Square and convince Kate to follow him to the corner.

Amitiés,
David

[richardnunweek]

Hi ,
oops 30th september

[richardnunweek]

Hi,
I know what happened on the night of the 30th Nov, soon after Eddowes was released, she walked to Mitre square with another woman much younger, and was seen by the killer, however the younger woman said her goodnights, and vanished into a house, leaving Eddowes alone near the murderer.
The Ripper was so frustrated, as he wanted the younger one, that he killed Kate in a bloody frenzy, also he was high on medication, that is why he was not concerned with safety.
Description .
A small man with a black tash, he also has a scar through top and bottom lip.
He intended his next victim to be younger, hense Mjk.
How do I know this.
Simply I read a book...no names.
Regards Richard.