The Bloody Piece of Apron (Recovered)

[Natalie Severn]

Hi All,
Thanks for the description of duty from Quarterly review, Monty,however I remember that Stewart Evans,when he spoke at last years UK conference ,cautioned us against assuming every Police Officer would always have stuck to his beat to the letter.So if we take this as a pretty likely state of affairs,probably many did exactly keep time ,but some did not, PC Harvey therefore "probably" arrived at the end of church passage somewhere between 1.35 and 1.40.?No doubt Trevor will confirm?
I must admit too that Trevor"s time allowance for the removal of certain "appendages" makes sound sense.I have always been unconvinced by the rushed timings given from time to time ,especially it being so dark in Mitre Square and Kate wearing so many layers of clothing.And ofcourse the half hour scenario suggested by Trevor throws into question the alleged Lawende sighting of the Ripper at 1.30. I believe Kate was dead by then,and the ripper already fled.

[Sam Flynn]

In the case of Eddowes one must allow at least another 10 mins for a skilled man to have removed the kidney as well making a min of 25 mins he would have to have spent in just removing the organs alone . These times are based on the removal being performed by a skilled surgeon...

A surgeon is interested in preserving life, and doing as little damage as possible, Trev, hence he takes his time. A skilled butcher could do all that in one minute or so, I daresay - but then he has a commercial interest in keeping the flesh as neat as possible. However, for a man who was neither interested in preserving life, minimising damage or maintaining the carcase in a saleable condition, no such constraints applied. Such a man was the Ripper, and a few minutes would have been enough for him to do what he did.

Edit: Maria, our posts crossed. Good point.

[mariag]

And yet, he did it in under 10 minutes.

The diference being that a skilled surgeon has to be careful not to damage anything in the course of an operation.

[Trevor Marriott]

As far as the removal of the uterus of Chapman was concerned it was suggested that it would have taken a skilled surgeon at least 15mins to have performed that removal under normal conditions

In the case of Eddowes one must allow at least another 10 mins for a skilled man to have removed the kidney as well making a min of 25 mins he would have to have spent in just removing the organs alone . These times are based on the removal being performed by a skilled surgeon. Also as far as the removal of Eddowes uterus was concerned not only was the uterus removed but its appendages i.e fallopian tubes which i would suggest as do the experts that it would have been an almost impossible task given the lighting available to him to have removed her uterus in the way it was described.

If you add on the tiime he would have to have spent in doing the actual killing and mutilations etc you come up with a minium time scale of 30 mins

Thanks for that Monty, it certainly illustrates that the men on night patrol were charged with the vigilence and security of virtually every lane, alley and pathway that is within their beat assignment.

If this was followed to the letter, and the beat was maintained at that pre-established pace, then it would makes sense that the killer was in the square, and Kate was on the ground, when Harvey looked into the square from the end of Church passage. Which would mean that for the killer to be unseen, he would have had to step away from the body into full shadows, (and we know the body wasnt dragged into shadows),.....so we could conceivably add a knife pause into the overall time the killer had with the victim at that site, when he hears footsteps coming down Church Lane...so there's perhaps that pause, and the pause that is present when he rips and cuts her apron.

So....the less time the killer had, the more I think that has direct bearing on his level of skill.

Thanks Monty, all the best.

[Monty]

Michael, Don,

Who would be responsible for monitoring the right hand/left hand beat rotations?

As Don (and Trevor also) states, it was the Beat Sergeant who made the clockwise or anti-clockwise call. He would then go out and do various spot checks throughout the night to ensure procedures were being carried out, the beat PCs were where they were supposed to be and assist any PC who needs help (see the McKenzie case).

This is an interesting piece from The Quarterly Review, Vol.129, no.257, 1870

The beats are all numbered and entered in a register, which can be referred to at any time. This register shows the streets, roads, squares, &c., in each beat, and the time required to pass over it at the rate of two and-a-half miles an hour. A sergeant has the charge of each section, and of the men doing duty in it; he is responsible for the proper conduct of the men, and, to satisfy himself that they are doing their duty properly, he is constantly patrolling the section. As a check upon the sergeant and the men working under him, the inspector visits the subdivison at different points during the day and night, the superintendent keeping a vigilant eye upon the working of the entire division; while, as a check upon the whole, the commissioners and district superintendents either make inspection of the divisions in person, or send out special officers from Whitehall to report as to the manner in which the whole duty is done.

It will be observed, from the much larger number of night-beats than of those in the day, that the patrol-work of the police is principally done at night : night being the time of danger, and consequently of watching. in round numbers, two-thirds of the whole force are employed by night, and one-third by day; the men taking their turns on both kinds of duty. The night constables go on duty at 10 P.M. and remain until 6 A.M., when the [-101-] day duty begins. The whole service is arranged by reliefs, each man taking his turn of eight months' night duty and four months' day duty in the year. It is also arranged that the force patrolling the principal thoroughfares shall be greater at certain hours than at others, the largest number being on duty between seven and ten in the evening; long experience having shown that it is between these hours that the greatest number of thefts and depredations are attempted, as well as because the streets are then the most disorderly by reason of the number of drunken people abroad.

And now observe what are the routine duties expected to be performed by the police-constable on patrol. These are carefully laid down for him in his book of 'General Regulations, Instructions, and Orders,*' the details of which he is required to master, to remember, and to carry out. He is informed, at the outset, that the principal object of the institution of the force is the prevention of crime:-

'To this end (says the Order-book) every effort of the police is to be directed. The security of person and property, the preservation of the public tranquillity, and all the other objects of a police establishment will thus be better effected than by the detection and punishment of the offender after be has succeeded in committing the crime. This should constantly be kept in mind by every member of the police force, as the guide for his own conduct. The police should endeavour to distinguish themselves by such vigilance and activity, as may render it extremely difficult for any one to commit a crime within that portion of the town under their charge.'

In carrying out these general instructions, the men on patrol are directed to make themselves thoroughly acquainted with the geography of their respective sections, and with the names of the several streets, thoroughfares, courts, and houses. The police-constable is even 'expected to possess such a knowledge of the inhabitants of each house as to enable him to recognise their persons, and thus prevent mistakes and be enabled to render assistance to the inhabitants when called upon to do so.' He has to see to the proper fastening of the doors and windows of the houses along his beat, with a view to the better security of the inmates. He is to observe whether coal-holes, trap-doors, or other places, on or near the footway, are securely covered over; and report when they are not so, in order that this cause of danger to the public may be removed. He is to observe the conduct of any suspicious person hanging about a house, and to take notice of any one carrying away parcels or bundles from it at unseasonable hours under suspicious circumstances. He is to pay particular attention to public-houses and beer-shops, which, [-101-] however, he is not to enter except in the immediate execution of his duty. He is to report all nuisances in the streets, courts, or thoroughfares, that steps may be taken for their removal. He is also, amongst his other various duties by day and night, to look after beggars, tramps, and street nuisances; to watch letter-pillars and street lamps (reporting whether they are properly lighted or not); to check the nuisance of smoky chimneys and street noises; to prevent the solicitation of prostitutes; to seize stray dogs; to take charge of lost children; to remove destitute persons from the streets; to carry accident cases to the hospital; to report dangerous houses or structures; to watch the outbreak of fires, and assist in their extinction before the arrival of the Fire Brigade*; to take charge of exposed property at fires; to seize obscene prints and publications, and charge the persons offering them for sale before the magistrates; to prevent indecencies and offences against public morality generally; to charge disorderly persons obstructing thoroughfares or causing breaches of the peace; on all of which subjects the police have special and distinct instructions.

[* Since the introduction of the improved organisation of the Fire Brigade, the number of fires extinguished by the police before the arrival of the engines has been very much reduced. Thus, of 561 fires which occurred in 1859, 41 were extinguished by the police alone, whilst of 690 fires in 1868, only 7 were so extinguished, the fire-engines being so much more readily available since the general introduction of the electric telegraph.]

The Commissioner takes care to impress upon the minds of his men the necessity of performing these various, difficult, and often delicate duties with 'perfect command of temper.' They are cautioned 'not to use irritating language even to those offending against the law.' They are not to interfere unnecessarily, but, when it is their duty to act, they are to do so with decision and boldness. 'The police,' says the order, 'are not to use language towards persons in their custody calculated to provoke them; such conduct often creates a resistance in the prisoner, and a hostile feeling among the persons present towards the police.' And again: 'The more respectful and civil the police are upon all occasions, the more they will be respected and supported by the public in the proper execution of their duty.'

* The Coppers bible.

Cheers

Monty

Michael,

Who would be responsible for monitoring the right hand/left hand beat rotations?

Neil Bell (Monty) had a great article that answers all those questions called "As Far As Mitre Square" in Rippierologist 71 (September 2006). As I recall, the beat sergeant made the nightly call on left or right and anyone at all familiar with the beats would recognize if it were a left or right night rather quickly. But you should get that back issue.

Don.

Hi Don, and thanks for that steerage. Something else occurred to me regarding this "would they search Kate" or not issue, and Dave O asked if City regulations would have varied, I still havent found a source yet on that, but I do recall that in the City, there was a "rest and release" policy that was not in effect in Greater Metro. D & D's stayed the night. That may have bearing on whether they might seek to expidite booking and releases by forgoeing the searches, although it still seems lax in terms of controls and safety, ....and if Catherine had been picked up in the East End, where we'd expect to have seen her, she might have lived that night. I say might have, because the way she had been drinking a stumble under a cart might have replaced Jack as the culprit.

All the best Don, all.

[Dave O]

Thank you, Wickerman. I had completely missed that statement by PC Hutt.

Cheers,
Dave

[Fisherman]

Observer writes:

"His failure to see the section of apron at 2:20...if that where he said he found it it must of been it must of been there at that time, right?"

I thought there was a little something more to your hint, Observer. The age-old question of whether you would or would not have seen the apron when passing it still lacks a definitive answer, I think. But it would be safe to say that no person can take in all details when walking down a dark street, meaning that he of course could have just missed it. Plus the time passing between the two occasions would of cours allow for a scenario where the apron was further inside the doorway to begin with, only to be kicked a bit further out by somebody leaving the Wentworth Model buildings shortly before our PC had his second shot.

The best,
Fisherman

[Supe]

Michael,

Who would be responsible for monitoring the right hand/left hand beat rotations?

Neil Bell (Monty) had a great article that answers all those questions called "As Far As Mitre Square" in Rippierologist 71 (September 2006). As I recall, the beat sergeant made the nightly call on left or right and anyone at all familiar with the beats would recognize if it were a left or right night rather quickly. But you should get that back issue.

Don.

[Celesta]

...for that you need the Kama Sutra

I never learn, do I?

Signed,

!st Banana

Hello all,

Im curious about something, perhaps someone has the answer. Who would be responsible for monitoring the right hand/left hand beat rotations? Or would it just be pre-established cycles? Who would know that Watkins was on a left handed beat that night?

There seems to be far too many police in the story of Mitre Square for my liking....3 men searching alleys nearby, Harvey and Watkins, Pearce, ex cop Morris,....and with the timing required on this murder, if Lawende did see Kate, knowing who would be where might make the stresses managable.

Cheers all.

[Natalie Severn]

...for that you need the Kama Sutra

Well some would have us believe that the Ripper was constructing an updated, homicidal ,anglicised version of it--- with 1888 street cred.

[Sam Flynn]

The forces were stretched so thin that there may have been little time for much on-the-job orientation.

...for that you need the Kama Sutra

[Celesta]

The East End was such a maze that it would hardly be a surprise if most of the supplemental policemen weren't confused, at least for the first couple of nights. Both the turf and the people would have been unfamiliar and might even have seemed hostile.

They were likely briefed, but the forces were stretched so thin that there may have been little time for much on-the-job orientation.