The Bloody Piece of Apron (Recovered)

[LadyG]

ah yes, well remaints of that could have likewise gotten on his face during the flurry of surgery, no? Perhaps all the more reason to salvage something to wipe it off during his exit. Then again he might be inclined to coprofilia (sp?)-- not to be confused with 'cop-a-feel-ya'. A scatological interest would have made the scrap more of a romantic momento than 'doo-rag'. Like everything, just guesswork.

[DVV]

Hi Lady G (seems talking to a Jamaican DJ - there's a woman by this name)
I don't want to send a gory post, but let's say there was not only blood on the apron.
So I doubt JtR had wiped his face with it.

Amitiés,
David

[LadyG]

Hello. I realize this thread is a couple of months old, but I am new to the board here and catching up. Forgive me if I am being redundant, but I admitt to not reading this entire thread-- VERY lengthy and I just about cleared the copious posts on page 1! Now, speaking about the apron-- we ARE talking about that front piece of a Victorian dress referred to as an apron, yes? Not the classic domestic sort of apron, correct? Secondly, I personally don't believe the piece taken away was to wipe his hands-- this would have been done on her clothes. I suggest he was wiping his face-- without a mirror to check his appearance and perhaps aware he had smudged or splashed blood on his face, he would be careful to wipe it thoroughly-- on the move if he had to-- as well as perspiration. Once he was satisfied, he would have just dropped it. Entirely possible he was never intending a clue, or wrote the graffitti. Just a thought.

Hello all,

I hate to sound redundant or dry, but these issues are precisely why each individual murder must be viewed in isolation from the others. It is only a series by opinion, not evidence, and there is a lot going on in and around Mitre Square that night that comes off sounding like staged entrances and exits.

At least one senior medical authority thought on record that she was not Jacks work.

Cheers all.

[Canucco dei Mergi]

There comes a point when you/we have to draw the line. Some suggestions just go too far.

Good.
And who is going to decide where is the point to draw the line.
And what kind of line anyway, a straight one or shall we leave some curbs on it ?

Some suggestions go too far ?
If this is the case there is no need to prevent proposing them. They will fall apart alone.

The truth must have no fear of imagination and speculation. Only the fear of the truth brings such limitations.
Funny how the serial-killer aficionados scare away people from looking in other directions shouting ridiculous at them.

It seems as - if ever a kind of conspiracy has taken place at the time of the Whitechapel murrders in order to commit them, for whatever reason - there is now a sort of double conspiracy to cover that one.
Half of this one comes certainly by fear of certain authors to lose their image (why would they ? - errare humanum est after all) as experts but the other half...... ?

Canucco dei Mergi

[Monty]

Monty

Wasn`t that Post Office robbery on Harvey`s beat ?

PS Q - Have you being opening your xmas crackers early ?

Jon,

It was, access via a warehouse in Duke Street and over the roofs to the Post Office and through their skylight.

Though the exact timing was never ascertained, it was either the Saturday or Sunday.

Monty

[Wickerman]

...I think the sounds are more troublesome than the vision across a square at night, if the killer was there, and just leaving as Watkins enters, and he is wearing leather-over-wood heels, then he would have been heard by Watkins.
Best regards.

You're absolutely right, when I was in Mitre Sq in 1971 or '72, I stood on the spot of the murder and the buddy I was with walked down Church Passage.
I could hear every step.

It was not that the police would hear any movement across the square, the killer would only be moving his arms anyway. My interest was that the killer could hear the approach of a PC down the passage, it echoed quite alot.
Of course, we did this after midnight, sound carries more at night, as you know.

The trouble with all these ideas about him wearing rubber boots/soles, is that we are creating an intelligent assassin, not a random murdering lunatic.
The more planning we ascribe to the killer, the more important his motive becomes.
Many of the citizens carried weapons, police memoirs inform us that much. Many men carried knives, all kinds of knives. Accepting Jack carried a knife does not set him apart from a good number of other men.
But, suggesting this killer also carried a bag for the organs, wore rubberized boots for silence, and carried a lamp so he could scribble anti-social messages in chalk, in the dark, is taking this east-end killer out of the lunatic class altogether.
There comes a point when you/we have to draw the line. Some suggestions just go too far.

regards, Jon.S.

added thought....If Harvey did look in, and saw nothing, and if Watkins heard nothing upon his entrance to the square, then I think the only thing that might makes sense is the killer wearing rubber soled shoes. Most if not the majority of footwear was still leather, uppers, lowers, and over a wooden heel. Sometimes with metal over that, for spiked heels, like I believe Mary Ann wore.

Some Metro police took to attaching rubber from old tube tires to their boots so they could patrol and search more stealthily. And remember the bit about Pizer and slippers...

I think the sounds are more troublesome than the vision across a square at night, if the killer was there, and just leaving as Watkins enters, and he is wearing leather-over-wood heels, then he would have been heard by Watkins.

Best regards.

Hi all,

Harvey's beat didnt take him into Mitre Square at all, as Monty says, it took him to where Church Passage meets it. All he need do to satisfy his requirements is to briefly look in. He says he did, at approx 1:42-43am, which would place him looking almost straight across at the scene I believe. The killer was almost certainly there at 1:42am, Harvey somewhat less so. In fact it is pointed out to him, that his statement and timing has him poised to interrupt the killer while at work.

Whats he going to do at that point, say he fudged that tiny little bit of his account...now knowing it is important, or is he forced to stay with his earlier version, lest he look an incompetent fool....and take his chances people wouldnt be too harsh on him that he didnt see the killer.

He does get dismissed without much explanation the following year, does he not? Hmm.

Best regards all.

[Jon Guy]

And, as a side note, it seems PC Harveys beat was in the midst of the Jewish Jewellers quarter which would have had an impact on his beat.

PS Q- Who wears a blue and white scarf and sings with the Miami Sound Machine?

A - Gloria Leicesterfan - Wha hay !

Monty

Wasn`t that Post Office robbery on Harvey`s beat ?

PS Q - Have you being opening your xmas crackers early ?

[Natalie Severn]

Monty,
Right.The passage was so narrow-he must just have checked locks and windows- likely to have become a habit checking those?-unless he heard or glimpsed something suspicious he would not have needed to look over towards that corner of Mitre Square-let alone enter it? But I reckon that shadows must have conveniently shrouded Kate"s body where it lay or else Harvey was there immediately before the murder and they were both hiding in the shadows- having heard his footfall as he walked down Church Passage.

[Monty]

Nats,

No.

The buildings Ive picked out are all in Church Passage and not in Mitre Square at all.

Cheers
Monty

[Natalie Severn]

So,Monty,as he looks into Mitre Square he looks over to his right where both the buildings you have picked out were situated.The corner of the square where Kate was left however was not his responsibilty but Watkin"s--- so he may not have looked directly over there?

[Monty]

Nats,

He had the rear entrance of the Synagogue and Kearley & Tonge to consider in Church Passage, along with a private dwelling.

As I said, there are variables and he was experienced enough to know his duties and shortcuts if needs be. However, he states....

Monty

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Monty,
That might mean that PC Harvey didnt consider the Mitre Square bit of his beat quite so "valuable" or in need of such close scrutiny?